From NASA Testing To Mental Clarity

He helped test the hardware that made Mars landings possible, then turned around and started helping leaders land the hard stuff in their own minds.

We sit down with John Mollura, a former NASA contractor and test operations engineer who spent years in mission-critical environments, including testing the giant airbags used to land Mars exploration rovers. John shares what that work really looked like, how an unexpected resume detail led him into test operations, and why high performance can still come with anxiety, imposter syndrome, and a constant need to “prove” yourself. We also talk candidly about the toll unpredictable travel can take on family life and how communication becomes survival, not just a soft skill.

The turning point is personal. John walks through a rock-bottom season marked by grief, fear, and a rediscovered faith that forced him to look inward and rebuild. From there we unpack self-sabotage, the lone-wolf mindset, and why some people are secretly afraid of success because it feels impossible to sustain. John then lays out his Elite Action Framework for high-impact leaders: legacy as a North star, confidence built through action and bravery, simple accountability that drives action, focus in a world of nonstop apps, structure through boundaries that protect time energy and values, and momentum that makes progress easier.

If you’re leading a team, building a business, or carrying pressure in silence, you’ll walk away with practical language and tools you can use immediately. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Gary Wise 0:28

All right, everyone. How are you doing? Half a day. Good morning. Aloha. Good afternoon. Good evening. All of the things. Thank you to everybody who's listening to the sound of our voice. Today, uh, I we have a very special guest on Words from the Wise. I have a gentleman by the name of Mr. John Molura. I gotta make sure I tell I'm pronouncing his name the right way, right way, but I believe it's Mr. John Moloura. John comes to us from an exciting past because he was once a contractor with NASA working in the space field, and he decided that he was gonna go ahead and leave that mission critical testing, that stressful life behind, and get into the space where he's working with high impact leaders to best unstuck their minds as they're navigating the mental challenges that is leadership. Uh, I'm looking forward to this conversation. Without further ado, let me let me invite John to the stage. John, what is up, man? How are you doing?

John Mollura 1:19

I'm great. Thanks for having me, Gary.

Gary Wise 1:22

Did I get your last name correct? Is it Molura?

John Mollura 1:25

Yeah, you got it, man. Yeah, Sicilian ancestors would be proud.

Gary Wise 1:29

Sicily, I like it, man. So have you ever been to Sicily?

John Mollura 1:33

Not yet.

Gary Wise 1:35

I was curious because I was watching a TV show the other day about Sicily, and it's essentially it's an island, and I was wondering if it's similar to like Puerto Rico or Guam. Just care, just one of the things I randomly thought about, right? And then you happen to be Sicilian, so there you go.

John Mollura 1:49

Yeah, yeah. I don't think it says tropical, it's it's it's the soccer ball at the end of the Italian boot.

Gary Wise 1:55

It is the soccer ball at the end of the Italian boot. Uh man, I'm super excited to have you on the podcast today. First, because I'm a high school teacher um in my retirement from the service, and several of my students are interested in getting into uh aerospace engineering, if you will, right? Is that what you did you go to college for that?

John Mollura 2:18

I went to college for mechanical engineering, that's why I got my degree from Penn State back in all the way back in 2000, which is more years than it now.

Gary Wise 2:28

But you know, it doesn't it go by fast, dude?

John Mollura 2:31

For real, right? Like getting ready to go to college in a couple weeks, so it's like geez always.

Gary Wise 2:38

Yeah, in 2000, I was a navy recruiter, uh convincing young people to come out and serve their country, and and as a matter of fact, I recruited when 9-11 happened, right? And it feels like it was not that long ago, and then here we are now, currently, you know, in operations in the Middle East, and it just feels like uh it definitely feels different, but it also feels like a finishing of something that started way back when, right? Okay, um, you know, but but I think about when you said 2000, and that's when you went to college, or is that when you graduated, or is that when you went?

John Mollura 3:14

That's when I graduated, yeah.

Gary Wise 3:17

Okay, so did you go to college right out of high school?

John Mollura 3:20

Yep, yeah, went right actually. A couple weeks after I graduated, I wasn't smart enough to get in with everybody that got to go to Penn State in the fall. So they said you have to do a trial run for six weeks in the summer, see if you can cut it. So uh apparently I made it.

Gary Wise 3:35

Well, I mean, that's amazing, brother. Like, I will tell you the amount of people that don't even apply to go to a four-year university again as a teacher, and I see this uh really hat playing out in front of me, and several of my a lot of my listeners will be high school students uh that that are I that I work with or that are connected to my program, and a lot of them are going through the transition of going to college. And did you just say you have somebody going to college in your household soon?

John Mollura 4:00

Yeah, or oldest daughter is getting ready to graduate high school in I mean a matter of weeks now, and then she's flying the coop right after that.

Gary Wise 4:08

And she's going to college right out the right at the gates.

John Mollura 4:11

Yep, yeah.

Gary Wise 4:12

Amazing. Uh how did do your experience did how did your experience play into that? Do you think that that factored into her decision making by your experience of going right into college after high school?

John Mollura 4:26

That's a great question. And I don't know because I left corporate engineering. Um the time of recording this, it'll be almost nine years to the day.

Gary Wise 4:36

Yeah.

John Mollura 4:36

That I that I left corporate engineering. So for a bulk of her formative years, and we have three kids, she's the oldest, she's 17, and we have a 15-year-old daughter, and then a 13-year-old son. So for the bulk of their formative years, dad was an entrepreneur. So figuring out, you know, way ways to make things happen. But the flip side to that was I was always able to, you know, go to their things for the most part, right? So and my wife, like you, is a high school educator, so she's been a high school educator since she graduated. So they they've seen both sides, they've seen the entrepreneurial, you know, journey, and then also the the full-time journey. But it college is not something we ever forced on our kids.

Gary Wise 5:19

Okay, no, I think it's such an interesting thing for these high school students, especially so much growth, 14 to 18 years old, right? I remember being in the service and I'd get these fresh 18, 19-year-olds and thinking, like, you're a baby, like, oh my god, you're so tiny. And then remembering, well, once upon a time, that was me, right? And here I am, you know, 25 years later. And then I get to the high school, and I'm getting these 14-year-olds in. I'm like, Oh my god, you're really a baby. But then four years later, they're like they almost feel like they're older when in the high school setting because all the other kids are so much younger, right? And I just it's an interesting time period, it's an interesting opportunity to have these kinds of conversations. And and I feel like if you don't know you're gonna be a person who wants to plan to go to college, then it can sneak up on people and they they they fail to plan to have all options available to them on the table, right? Like they don't get their education they need to get, so their scores are not high enough on qualifying tests, or they don't, you know, and then they try to go join the military and like they're they can't get the high enough score on that on the testing to get into the service, and it's just it sucks when somebody realizes that they've let themselves down in high school by failing to get an education, right? Right, but that happens, and I'm sure you've seen this in the world as well. People will muddle through their lives and fail to improve day to day, and then wonder why, you know, X amount of years later, they're not where they want to be. Well, it's because you failed to actually take it serious, right?

John Mollura 6:54

Like, right, right. There's a difference between I can and I will, you know, there's a lot of positive psychologies out there, you know, just believe you can, just believe you can, and it's like oh okay, that's cool, but yeah, you can make that transition to like saying, like, I will do this, like that that's a huge shift because there's a difference between capability and actually taking action on that.

Choosing Engineering After A Detour

Gary Wise 7:17

So curious, because I do definitely we're definitely gonna get into your entrepreneurial journey, but I I want to know real quick like when you went to college, why did you choose the engineering field? Was it just something about engineering that you enjoyed? Was it the job opportunities and the perceived, like I'm gonna make a lot of money if I get into that space? Because when I talk to people about college, it's like some people are like, there's a certain amount of money attached to the end of it once I graduate in the job field, and then there's others that are like, I'm all about this experience of this of the college thing, right? What was your driving factor to picking your major?

John Mollura 7:54

My my driving factor, and to this day, I really don't know, other than what I think probably happened was a guidance counselor told me I'd probably be good at it because I did decent in math and science. And the reason why I didn't really have a plan for like what I wanted to do in higher education is because my lifelong dream was to always go and serve in the military. And I got medically disqualified from all branches because of a congenital issue with my foot. So when that happened, dude, that took the wind out of my sails. I think it was like probably junior year or high school, like just getting all the different letters of like, you know, not fit to serve, not fit to serve, all branches rejected me. So I was kind of like, well, I guess I'll I guess I'll just you know go to college and that'll be my thing. And so I just went into engineering and just just did it, you know, and I was never the smartest person in the room, like not even close. It I always struggled in school, and I had no dreams of working in the space program. The only reason why I ended up there is because my buddies and I were out getting wings and beer one night, and they said, Hey, do you see that recruiting email that came through that the company that's making the spacesuit for NASA? And they're like, We should all apply. So, you know, for wings and beer, it sounded like a great idea at midnight. So so I did. So I applied. I thought we were all applying, we were gonna be spacemen. Right. So fast forward, I said, Hey, do you guys ever hear back from that that spacesuit company? And they're always like, No, we didn't apply to that. I'm like, Are you serious? I did. So they called me for an interview, and so that's how I ended up in the space industry. But the story beyond that is even wilder. I actually ended up in test operations, like supposed to be a program manager.

Gary Wise 9:42

Okay, so uh two things about that story before we go into the test operations thing is number one, I really appreciate that you did what you said you were gonna do, right? Even at that young age, even over wings and beer, you said you were gonna do something, and the next day you did it. The amount of people that unfortunately in this world that do not do that miss out on so many legit opportunities just by failing to essentially raise their hand and say, Hey, I'm interested in the opportunity. Um, and then the other thing I'd like to say is I really appreciated you saying, Hey, I might have picked that because some guidance counselor along the way might have said you'd been really good at that, or you could be good at that. That affirmation, just that simple possible affirmation that which probably happened, I've seen change people's lives, right? Just by me telling somebody, dude'd be really good at this program, you should you consider applying for it. Or like I told my son, my son's gonna be graduating high school this year as well. And I was a firefighter in the service for 16 years, and he was trying to figure out what he was gonna do after high school, and the military is kind of out for him just because he got drug all over the world and doesn't feel like doing it again, right? But I told him, I said, bud, I think you'd be a really good firefighter, like I think you've got a good heart for those kinds of things, and he's going after it because all he really wanted to hear from somebody was tell me what you think I'd be good at it. And then, you know, I don't know about you, but it wasn't until I was about 27, 28 years old till I started finally figuring out like what I wanted to do with my life. Yeah, you know, the first little bit I was just trying to figure it out so I could see how you going to college after finding out, hey, plan A wasn't gonna work, right? You gotta have B and C. And then somebody saying you might be a good engineer, and you okay, I'll do that. And then wings and beer, hey, I'm gonna apply for this freaking spacesuit program, and bada boom, bada bing, you got yourself an opportunity, right?

John Mollura 11:41

Yeah, yeah, and it's all about stitching together all those all those opportunities that you have, which might not even seem like they're gonna tie

Wings And Beer To NASA

John Mollura 11:50

into anything. So the way I wound up in test operations was the job was actually for a project engineer, you know, doing all the schedules, budgets, you know, all the things, which knowing myself now, I would have been awful at. I'm much more of a in the in the moment kind of thing. And as a as a I know what you did in the services, what you do, I know you appreciate that, like someone who likes being kinetic. So I was interviewing on the phone. Keep in mind this is back in 2000, so there was no Zoom, like I'm just there on the cordless phone. And all of a sudden, during the interview, the director of engineering says, Hang on a second, someone just walked by. I want you to talk to. I saw you have director of rock climbing on your resume. Like, what's that what's that all about? I'm like, Well, I taught rock climbing for a summer in college because I was supposed to do an internship with Disney and it fell through. So I just had no other options, and uh a buddy hooked me up with a job working up in the Catskills for the summer, and I learned how to rock climb so and became a rock climbing director for the Boy Scouts. I thought, I'm gonna put on my resume, it shows responsibility, and the director of engineering is like, that's I don't think I've ever seen that on a resume. Hang on, there's someone we want you to talk to. And so the phone goes dead, and all of a sudden, that you know, click comes off mute. This dude doesn't introduce himself, just says in this real nasally voice and goes, Hey, what do you think about rock climbing on Mars? And me being, you know, a professional smart aleck my entire life. I said, I don't know, you're gonna pay my airfare, dude. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh my gosh, I just blew it. That smart mouth that I have, my dad told me it's gonna get me in trouble. I just blew this interview. However, this dude had the other response. He said, get him down here, and then disappeared. Like that was it. Director of engineering came back on and said, Well, that was our director of test operations, Skip Wilson. Um, apparently he would like to meet you and talk to you in the mic. Former um pararescuan in Vietnam. Right. Speaking for special forces, and then went into being a SEER instructor, survival instructor, and then eventually retired out of Edwards as a test engineer. And when he saw rock climbing on my resume, because I eventually asked him, I said, Why did you want to meet me and eventually hire me for test operations? He said, I don't need another egghead on my team. He said, I don't need someone who has a 4.0, which I definitely did not have. He said, I need someone that can end up that I can send out into the field and is not going to get themselves killed, kill anyone on my team, or more importantly, not kill me.

Gary Wise 14:32

Right.

John Mollura 14:32

So that opportunity to teach rock climbing, where I raised my hand, I'm like, I'll do it, whatever. I don't have any other options. I I'll do it.

Gary Wise 14:41

Right.

John Mollura 14:42

From losing that dream internship at Disney is actually how I wound up in test operations for a decade and a half.

Gary Wise 14:48

And truth be told, Ben, I thought that I could I understood right away as soon as you talked about the rock climbing thing being on there, that that was going to make sense to a guy looking for somebody who might be willing to take on some risk, right? Because not your average person is going to want to scale up a rock face or up a even a 70-foot, 60-foot, 30, even at the jump park, right? Some people don't want to climb up the rock face, right? And so if you're going into the world of possibly being uncomfortable, uh knowing that this person was willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations is very appealing. Plus, you have the education to make, you know, I was an engineer in the Navy for a significant portion of my career, and I used to always tell people that I made I was a good engineer because I was short, I'm I'm not a very tall person, right? I'm five foot six, so I was small enough to get inside the boiler on the ship, but then I was strong enough to turn the wrench, right? Like I was, I'm a little, I'm a little built, I'm a little, you know, stacked up, dude. So I can get in there and I can be in this hot boiler busting out these these belly plates, and they love me for that. Where if you were a six-foot-tall guy, you just couldn't do it, it just wasn't gonna work. And some of these characteristics about you is what's gonna make you appealing, and that was again a smart decision to put it on your resume, right? To the people that are listening, you never know. Some of these extra things that bring that flavor of who you really are might be value added to that process, right? So when you get into that the world of of working with space and possibly Mars and whatever it was, was it what you thought it was going to be?

Rock Climbing That Changed Hiring

John Mollura 16:27

No, it was not. Like I thought it was it was going to be like you know, these black mirror-faced buildings and like all this high-tech stuff around, right? And I showed up at the place where I worked, and it's literally out in the middle of a cornfield in Delaware, and it's an old warehouse that was built probably in like the 1950s, that they've just parsed up and chopped up inside. And like literally, Gary, when I started in 2001, January 2001, it still had wood paneling on the walls, like old school. And I'm like, this is not what I thought of when I thought I was gonna be working with NASA, and then the test facilities we would go to were like built in like the 40s and 50s, you know. So it had the sea foam green walls, the paint peeling off of them. And so, no, it was not like I expected it, but the people like far exceeded like anything I ever imagined. Like the test crews that we worked with were just fantastic people.

Gary Wise 17:34

Okay, and what was it you were testing? Were you testing for like outer space operations, and that's what you guys are working on?

John Mollura 17:42

Yeah, so the company that I worked for, we made stuff that was high anything that was like very high-tech fabric. So the spacesuit that NASA astronauts wore from the Apollo program through present day is is made right here in Delaware. And what I got hired on for was the Mars exploration rover missions that landed in 2003. So we were testing them because and what we were testing was these giant airbags that inflated up around the robots. So it'd come, you know, go on, it'd go through space for six months, come through the atmosphere screaming with all the heat and everything coming off. And then they'd come in, drop it on a parachute, and then right before it hit the ground, we would have these giant airbags that were like probably 18 feet tall. And when it'd get within 30 to 50 feet of the ground, they'd cut it away and it would hit and just bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, and bounce for a couple miles on the surface of Mars. So that's how they landed back in 1994 with the Pathfinder missions. Our company built those. And then they said, Hey, what if we got more science in there, which translates into what if we made the robot heavier and made it more difficult to land? So we were we were testing these airbags with these heavier robots against against a more aggressive landing site, and we were testing it out in this facility in Ohio where they could actually suck all

Mars Airbag Tests And Travel Life

John Mollura 19:06

the air out of it and simulate Martian environments. And then we'd slingshot at this big rock field, which guess whose job it was to climb the top of the rock field? You know, this guy right here.

Gary Wise 19:17

Yeah, who's got two thumbs that looks like me?

John Mollura 19:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That dude. Um, and so we'd slingshot these airbags with this like mock-up robot inside, and it would bounce and we'd evaluate the damage, and and we're just continually testing for years because we actually had three separate missions launching that we that we had a launch window to hit in June of 2003. So that was my indoctrination into the the world of space engineering. In fact, they put me on a plane by noon, my first day. I showed up at work, moved to Delaware. They said, There's your desk, here's your email login. Okay, grab your suitcase. We're going to we're shipping out now. And that was pretty much how my life went for the next decade and a half.

Gary Wise 20:00

Yeah, I was about to ask you. I mean, that's very exciting. Just be that get on a plane, let's go. And then you ended up doing that for fifty about 15 years, you said all in all. Yeah, yep. Wow. I mean, that's pretty impressive, man, to come out of college, land a deal with somebody like that, and then to be with them for 15 years. Um I'm curious to know, like, why did you choose to to possibly go into something else? Yeah, and what and during that 15 years, is that when you also like met your wife, started your family, all that other stuff as well?

John Mollura 20:33

I met my wife right before I graduated college, and she was two years behind me. So while I was out globe trotting and you know, slingshotting robots at rocks for a couple of years, you she was finishing up her studies, and then we got married right when actually right after all these missions launched to Mars. And we went on our honeymoon, came back. There was a voicemail that said, Hey, when you get back from your honeymoon, pack your bags, you're leaving for three weeks. And so we had to go test again before they hit like some critical window. So the rockets launched to Mars, and here we are now testing things because we had to change the trajectory of the rocket. So, newlywed, my wife had just moved down here. I'm like, okay, see you later. So I worked at that job, you know, right while we got married, and then a couple years later, while we started having kids and continued to be gone for you know weeks at a time in the test operations, we never knew when we were coming home. So much that they stopped buying us return tickets because if we were delayed because of a test site or an issue, I'd be like, Well, she's like, When are you gonna be home? She eventually stopped asking me. I'd be like, Well, yeah, maybe, maybe Friday, maybe in April. Don't know. I'll keep you posted. Um So that put a lot of stress on things, you know, being gone in that unpredictability in the marriage. But you know, a lot of it came down to communication.

Gary Wise 22:11

Super hard. I get it, man. I get it. You know, long distance relationships are tough, man. Yeah, I can definitely relate. And you know, and the different, I think the different thing in with my world was when I would go, it wasn't just me going, it was a whole bunch of people going. But in your world, it may not be a whole lot of people going, and you wouldn't, your wife wouldn't have this great support network of mean, she might have family, she might have friends, you know. But like I in the Navy, we did this thing called individual augmentation where we would send us like one person to go satisfy a mission, and I really had to pay attention to that person's family because they would feel very lonely because not everybody was going on that experience, right? And so, and then the not knowing when you're gonna come back is another one, right? You got to answer the kids' questions when's dad gonna be home, and that can that that that all becomes a challenge. Uh I'm curious to you know, why did you decide to essentially I mean walk away from what you've been doing for your most of your adult life, yeah, right? And then to transition into taking on your own business. And did you go right into owning your own business, or did you do something else on that on that transition space?

John Mollura 23:24

Yeah, yeah. So so this was the whole journey. So it's not only that that I left that that job that I knew, like I excelled at that job. Like I I really was awesome at it. And so I left that job in 2016, the summer of 2016. But backing up seven years prior to that, I hit you know, just an absolute rock

Marriage Pressure From Uncertainty

John Mollura 23:53

bottom moment, which was the catalyst for me eventually leaving.

Rock Bottom And A Faith Turning Point

John Mollura 23:57

And it was kind of a one-to punch that I got in in 2009. We had just had our first kid, which which you know was a fantastic experience. Like she was healthy, all that stuff. But up until that point, I was about 180 degrees different from the way I am. So, like, I know you're you're a man of faith. So I really identify with the Apostle Paul. So 2009 was was literally like my Damascus Road experience. Because up until that point, even though I had, you know, like letters of commendation, you know, we landed things on Mars. You know, I was working with F-35 crews, like before there was flying in air shows doing stuff. I didn't believe I was worthy of any of those commendation letters. I didn't believe I was worthy of any of those accolades. I didn't believe I was worthy of like the promotions I got. I just had this just anxiety and you know, people call it imposter syndrome now. And as I was building my career up, a lot of times my hand would go up fastest for you know the most challenging missions, projects, you know, bonus points if there was like hazard involved. So I thought maybe if I do this, complete this project, right? And not get myself blown up in the process and come back with a successful thing, maybe then I'll be enough. Right. And these were like very deep-seated things. Well, as I'm sure you know, I see you smirking, like doing the next hardest thing, like to get validation, all it does is build this house of cards up even higher.

Gary Wise 25:38

Right.

John Mollura 25:39

So here I was eight years into this career, and we had our first kid, and all of a sudden, like all these fears just came on me. You know, what if I'm a horrible father? What if I can't do this? What if I can't hold this all together? And it just became this real negative loop that had me just really questioning like, am I gonna be able to do this as a dad? And then a couple months after our first child was born, one of my best childhood friends, um, who was an Air Force veteran, intentionally overdosed and took his own life. And he was someone I really looked up to. He was not only a best friend, but he was a year older than me, so I always looked up to him. And when when we lost him, like I didn't know what to do. Like I became an absolute wreck. I was in this like continual fog. And at one point, like my wife and daughter were out and I was getting ready for work. I was thinking, maybe maybe he had it right. Maybe I maybe I shouldn't be here either. Like I went to a real dark place, dude.

Gary Wise 26:39

Right.

John Mollura 26:40

And up until then, I hadn't prayed for probably 12 years. And this is where I really relate with Paul because up until that moment in 2009, I was anti-religion. I would say to people, like, if I found out that they were a person of faith, and it didn't matter, like Jew, Hindu, you know, Muslim, Christian, I'd be like, What are you too weak to do life without a crutch of a god? Like, I would say things like that because I was so angry about things I experienced going to Catholic high school, about what I saw, what I experienced. And I just thought it was all a sham. So I hadn't prayed for a while until I'm in the in my bathroom, like I don't know what to do. I don't I don't know if I want to keep going on. And Holy Spirit whispered to me, and I was so broken, I finally let it in, and I said the serenity prayer. It just it just popped in my head. I hadn't prayed in you know over a decade. And as soon as I said, in the wisdom to know the difference, I felt this warm sensation come over me, top to bottom, Gary. And I thought, that's weird, right? Like that doesn't normally happen. I thought I've either lost my mind, like I finally cracked up, or maybe there's something to this God thing.

Gary Wise 28:02

Yeah.

John Mollura 28:03

And that began the process of the proverbial scales falling from my eyes. And as as as we talk about now in faith, it's like before God can do work through you, he's got to do a lot of work in you. So the next you know, six years became God showing me how I was showing up in the world. And I was working with elite teams, elite projects, you know, an elite performer by the world's standards, but I was also an elite a-hole, right? And that's how I protected myself. You know, I was real short-tempered, wouldn't listen to people, no empathy, because you know, what it really was, it was it was turning the light on my own wounds. So like I just shut all that down. Right. So 2009 going forward, you know, I finally had mentors and counselors and people stepping into my life and speaking life into me. And I continue to get curious and start growing my

Toxic Culture And Control What You Can

John Mollura 29:08

faith. So as I'm like finally getting my personal life together, after like 30 years, the company I'm working for was taken over by venture capitals, which their whole thing is making money, not about doing these really cool spacey things, which are not great profit makers, right? Especially when you have people like me blowing up these projects out in the desert, you know, whenever they didn't work. So I'm getting myself together, and now the company I'm working with, they start vilifying the people that are working on these space programs because we're costing them money. And they came and changed out all the executives, it became an extremely toxic place. By that time, like now I was the lead test engineer at the company, and they would just bring us into meetings and like scream and swear at us. I'm like, hey, you know, time out, like this is not how you treat people, right? And I don't recommend you treat anyone like that, but especially the guys that handle the explosives, like you should be nice to them, you know, and they're like, Yeah, whatever. So it all came to a head, yeah.

Gary Wise 30:20

Yeah, that had to be tough, man. Like, here's this company you've gone through so much for and with, and then you got this whole other organization that comes in and essentially buys it over and then starts, like you said, vilifying the people that have been loyal and doing the work. Uh, I can I'm gonna come back to that, but then but before I do that, when you look back on your 2009 time frame, I'm just really curious. Did your wife know that you were going through all those emotions, or did you kind of work all keep all that to yourself?

John Mollura 30:53

Oh, yeah, no, I I completely stuffed it all down, and um it's so bro, why do we do that though, right?

Gary Wise 31:02

Because it's and it's not just a male thing, high performers in general typically don't even tell their spouses that they're going through all these things. Have you figured that one out yet? Why do we not tell the people closest to us that we're struggling?

John Mollura 31:16

Well, uh what what a lot of that comes down to, in my opinion, is we don't want to admit that we have weaknesses. Like we we have such lofty goals, and we don't want to admit we're weak, we don't need any help. That's why one of the things I talk about, like in my workshops and my keynotes, is the way we sabotage ourselves. And the and you know, the the there you need two successful things for sabotage, and this is actually from the uh simple sabotage field manual, right? Which was developed back in the 1940s by the office of I Forget Some Kind of Service, which rebranded as the CIA, right? So you can go to CIA.gov and literally download the simple sabotage field manual for real, right? Right, right.

Gary Wise 32:04

And just human nature, right? They're just leverage, they're just using it against people, yeah. Yeah, simple sabotage.

John Mollura 32:10

Yeah, so the the two things you need for sabotage to be successful is no one can figure out that it's happening while it's going on. Right. And then the second thing that's required for sabotage to be successful is once the the act of sabotage happens and the dust settles, no one knows who did it. So two two of the big ways that we sabotage ourselves are with our time, right? Chasing that vapor of perfection. You know, and the other way we really sabotage ourselves is our relationships, which is having this lone wolf mentality, you know, building walls around ourselves, and then you know, if all else fails, like burning the bridges down around us. And and we do that continually, especially as high performers, like we have this lone wolf mentality based on whatever trials, transition, or tragedy has happened in your life. So we don't want to admit we need help.

Gary Wise 33:11

Right. No, no, I think that's spot on. And I think the other thing is, at least for me, uh, part of why I did not always communicate with my spouse when I was really going through because you know it goes in waves, right? You'll have these high performance seasons and other times that are not such so so busy. But I didn't always tell my wife because she I didn't want her to worry about me or worry about what I was working on because I I didn't need extra stress, right? Like, you know, but that then she would wonder why I'd be freaking out or binge drinking or whatever it was, and it'd be hard to explain that I had all these things underneath the surface that I didn't want to talk about, but I'm trying to self-medicate by working harder, working more, working later, drinking excessive amounts of alcohol, uh, being angry, right? Or being emotional, I guess I should say, because it wasn't just anger. And I think that one of the things that I've learned throughout my life was is it's just so much simpler to communicate with people, at least ones that you can trust, like holistically, right? Because like when you're when your company was going through that transition space, there probably wasn't a lot of people you could trust at work at that point in time, right? Because they just give us a reason to let you go, bud, because we're looking at reasons to get rid of you. On the reverse, uh, you know, I I've been in places where I've put the hours in and then had new leadership come in, and they did not value what had been because they were only focused on where they were going. And that's a huge leadership four to always figure out how they got where they're at before you start figuring out where you're gonna go next, or you're going to possibly you're gonna break some of that China in the China shopping. Well, I can agree that sometimes you got to do what you got to do, just be prepared because there's a really I remember one meeting I was in and we were mapping out the movements for the entire Seventh Fleet, and we were literally planning all these ships. And I essentially stood up and I said, at what point are we gonna plant them like to be home with their families? At what point are we gonna plant them to like go see these countries we told them they were gonna go see when they joined the Navy? Because all I'm seeing is operations all the way down the line, and no one is thinking about their quality of life or their work-life balance. Every one of those little dots is like 300 family members, right? Like somebody needs to care about these people to the point of being humans, as well as being part of the production team or part of the test team or part of the whatever it is. And when you start to feel like you you were feeling in those meetings where they were yelling at you and cursing at you, you really start to feel like, and unfortunately, we all know this is true. We are we can we're all replaceable, right? Except for to our kids and to our spouses, right? That's I mean, that's a lesson that we've all got to learn at some point. Uh, but on the reverse, you really should try to not make people feel that way because then maybe they can calm down and do even better. Because imagine how much better you could do if you weren't so stressed, right? On the inside. Um, anyway, just food for thought. So you're going through this transition. It's you you're working on yourself from the 2009 forward with your faith journey. You're probably it's probably affecting everything better, but now work is kind of going to crap because of things beyond your control, yeah. Right? Yeah. So did I will tell you one of the things that I did when I went through that time period was I figured what I could do, what I could do as an adult, as a father, as a husband, as a man, right? Because I was tired of other people being in control of my life. Is that kind of what you did as well?

John Mollura 36:59

Well, yeah, at work. I mean, we were still working critical programs for Homeland Security. It's like, hey, look, I know I know I know everything's burning down around us. They just cut the legs out from under us with our team and just reduced our our operational effectiveness. But like we're we we end goal's still the same. Like we'll like we're we're still here to support a bigger mission to support people in a major metropolitan area for this thing we were working on. So I just really leaned into that and I still have it in a notebook. I remember I was sitting out at the test site one night, it was probably like I think it was like midnight on like Memorial Day weekend or something, and I'm watching like some stupid pump, you know, doing this long duration test. I'm the only one out there. And I got out and I wrote down like why I wanted to leave. I'm like, because when when I decide to leave, I know I'm going to look back and be like, why did you ever leave? What surely it couldn't have been that bad. So I took stock of that, but in the day-to-day moments, like I made sure to really boost the morale of my team.

Gary Wise 38:04

Right.

John Mollura 38:04

I you know, whether it was like, you know, just just goofy, you know, things on the whiteboard or in the coffee room or like writing on people's whiteboards, like continue to be awesome. Like that was like my catchphrase because like morale is just shot. Like they just watched everyone come in and get decimated that had been there like 25 years with the company, right? So, like again, it goes back to you know, I'm gonna control what I can. And I mean, at the end of the day, there there's two things in the world there's things you can control and things you can't. The only things you can control is is really you when you get down to it, yeah.

Gary Wise 38:39

And so taking stock of all those things is that when you decided to make the decision to move out of that that work, that workforce area.

John Mollura 38:48

Oh no, no. So at this point, no, no, there's another story. Buckle up, Gary.

Gary Wise 38:54

Oh man, okay,

Self Sabotage And Lone Wolf Habits

Gary Wise 38:56

yeah, yeah.

John Mollura 38:56

I've been through it. Um, so here it is, it's 2016 by this point. I've been working on myself for seven years. Now we we we have three kids, and you know, I I just can't handle the this job anymore, right? Like it's it's just so toxic, and like it's just going going down in flames. So, you know, I I've started having all the noble obstacles, as one of my favorite John A. Cuff calls them, start popping up. No, you can't start your own business, you got three kids, you got to provide for them. You know, coming up with all these reasons why I couldn't do what I felt called to do. Right. So, as a you know, quote, responsible father, I went and took another engineering job where I was making even more money, and you know, I was making six figures at that point, being flown around the world, you know, to Asia to rep the company, like first class, like on paper, like checked all the boxes, right, dude. Right. I've never been so miserable at the nine months I lasted at that company because it was a it was a straight up desk job. There was no field operations, there was no nothing. It was I was sitting in meetings arguing about what kind of stainless steel should this be, A36A or A36B. And I'm like, who cares? Like, yeah, can I go out and see if this breaks? Like, so there I was, and that just just goes to show like things can look really good on paper, right? Right, and like I was miserable, it was just so out of alignment with who God was showing me I really was. So my wife and I like had numerous heart-to-hearts, and my wife, who's the the planner, likes to have everything like figured out, like when we go on vacation, she's the one with the passports, the tickets, right? You know, the the rental car reservation. And I'm like, where are we going again? Like, I'm just happy to be here. Where are we flying to? And so we're having this conversation. I say, you know, I I really would love to turn my side household that I've been doing for years of photography. I I just wish I could do that. And she looks at me and said, Well, why don't you? And I of course had all the things. It's like, well, you know, you know, there's the money thing. She's like, Well, you're really good. You've been going to these business development meetings, like, you know how to land clients, you have a networking group. She's like, Why don't you do it? And I was like, Crap, she just called me out. I thought she was gonna be the one saying, like, yeah, no, you can't do that. We don't know how that's gonna work. When here she was, you know, prayerfully saying, like, no, I just do it. She's like, What's the worst that's gonna happen? She's like, You can go begin an engineer again, but you'll never be able to know if you could have done this unless you try. So that was that was nine years ago, and you know, we prayerfully made the decision for me to leave engineering. So my first job was as a commercial photographer. You know, that's what I did for a number of years, and then had an engineering uh consulting company to help out the company I used to work for because Homeland reactivated the project. And guess what? No one was left at the company that knew anything about it. Here I was as an entrepreneur, and they called me back in 2020.

Gary Wise 42:21

Right.

John Mollura 42:22

So started that company and then went through another journey and in gyrations of my photography business and started realizing that after COVID, people's confidence was just shot. So like they pay me like big money to do these photo shoots, and then no one would want to get in front of the camera. So I started using all the coaching experience that I had had over the past, you know, by this point, you know, 13, 14 years, and I started pouring into people in these photo shoots, and then I started realizing like maybe this would be a different way to serve people through coaching them. So I just started kind of leaning into that and got asked to tell my story wrestling with imposter syndrome when I got a letter of commendation, and it just really took off from there over these past few years to where I'm at now.

Gary Wise 43:09

That's amazing, man. I was gonna ask you uh about COVID actually, because as I was listening to your timeline, I was just counting down the years till COVID hit, right? And that was such a big event in all of our current lives that, as especially for us as adults, right? Like when I look at things that happened in our lives like we were younger, it was one thing, but as like dads going through COVID, that was a very important experience that we all had to go through, and you were going through it as a as a new entrepreneur who is also leaving a job field you've been with for a long time. But before I got to that, I was gonna hit real quick on the fact that you I love your words because you use, you know, I felt like I was called to do something for myself, right? Or called to do something under my own power that was gonna benefit other people. And then you tried that other engineering job, but that wasn't

Leaving Engineering For Entrepreneurship

Gary Wise 44:03

what you were called to do. And then you said it was out of alignment, which is another one of my favorite thought processes, right? Because I believe life is all about trying your best to be aligned. Balance sounds great. I'd rather be aligned, right? I'd rather be aligned. I just feel like I'm never gonna find balance, right? There's just I got too much crap going on. But if I can get in alignment with the important things, everything else will balance itself out, right? It'll just, it'll, it'll figure itself out. And so when I heard those things, I just I was not surprised when uh you didn't find the hat the peace you were looking for with that with that new job, uh, even though unfortunately the money compensation was there. And then of course you were traveling again, which yeah, you know, I hate traveling for my family now. I love I I don't mind actually I love airports, I love going places, but there is always a piece in me that's just I gotta leave the kids, gotta leave my wife. You know, I'll do it. And secretly I do enjoy it, but there's still a piece of me that also it's a labor of love in the sense that I gotta really make sure I can, you know, get through it. And then, you know, you get into your business of the photography thing, which I appreciate that, but then COVID here when COVID first came down the pipe. Uh, was that a major complication for you, or did it just kind of resolve itself relatively quickly?

John Mollura 45:23

It it was it was definitely a complication because at the time I was doing a lot of commercial shoots right for like all manner of things on Amazon. Like I photographed everything from water bottles with metaphysical crystals in it to survival equipment to hearing aids, like you you name it. So a lot of those shoots required models. So that that threw that into total chaos. Like, how are we gonna work this out? So that's like, all right, well, I guess we're doing a lot of these shoots outside, you know, and and just in

COVID Disruption And Consulting Comeback

John Mollura 45:53

figuring out how to retool it and make it work, and you know, thinking on our feet.

Gary Wise 45:57

Okay, and then you were doing the shoots, uh and I am curious, kind of curious to hear how your old organization came with hat in hand, and it's like, hey, how can you come support us? Like, did they reach out to you personally? And you're like, just so happens I'm willing to be a contractor to be a separate supporting entity, or like, were you excited about that phone call? Like a little bit of validation, like, hey, I really was good at that, and they this is them. This is them saying that. Does that feel good?

John Mollura 46:26

Yeah, so it was a call from one of my one of my you know brothers in arms and in and test operations that we did. Yeah, I'm like, I haven't talked to this dude in years. I'm on the I'm I'm actually on my way to Nashville when the call came in for a photo shoot. And I pick a phone, like, what's up, Bobby? And uh he's like, Hey, what are you doing? I'm like, well, presently, I'm like halfway to Nashville. What's up? Yeah, and he said, He said, Do you remember the the the project for homeland? I go, yes. He goes, Well, they just reactivated it. I go, Oh, that's cool, that'll be good, good for business. He goes, Yeah, little problem. They they've let go everybody, or the everyone's left that had any kind of tribal knowledge on that because now it's been like four four years. I go, Yeah, okay, how's this concern me? He said, Would you be willing to come back? And my immediate thought was, I'm like, Man, if I go back, does that mean like I'm not able to make it as a photographer? Like, I had all these negative thoughts. You know, I still had like a really negative bias a lot of times at that point. So my wife was with me going to this photo shoot, and I laid with her what was on my heart, and she kind of looked at me, she said, Are you kidding me? She said, You you can do that because you're you're you're your own boss. She said, if you want to, that doesn't mean it's not that you can't do your photography. This is just a an addition to. I'm like, Oh wow, you're you're really smart. Glad we had this conversation, Brenda. Right? Yeah, and so I said, I I I called them back. I said, let me think about it, guys. So called them back and said, All right, this is what it looked like, this is the compensation, and they're like, their eyes went huge, and they're like, Well, that's that's way out of our budget. I said, All right, sorry. Yeah, they're like, Are you serious? I'm like, dead serious. I said, You called me. It's not like I was calling you trying to scrounge for work. If you want me to to you know shift over what I'm doing, this is what it's gonna cost. And they're like, we can't cover that. I'm like, all right, well, no worries, good luck.

Gary Wise 48:42

That's it.

John Mollura 48:43

So time is valuable, man. Yep. So fast forward three months, Homeland Security was upset that their project wasn't getting taken care of, and they finally gave the green light, you know, for for the the rate I was charging. So I was like, all right, well, let me uh I guess create another LLC and figure all that out. So create the LC, got the insurance, and you know, did that for like another year and a half. And it was really weird because it was at the same facility that that I had left at this point, I forget what it was. It was almost four years, four or five years ago.

Gary Wise 49:20

Right.

John Mollura 49:20

And to like walk back through the doors, and I hadn't, and I'd been back a couple times because they actually hired me for photography services too. Um, so I was never too, too far away, but it was weird being back there in an engineering capacity. Um, but it also gave me some peace that, yeah, that that's not where I was supposed to be. Like I helped them with the project, we did what we had to do. Um, but yeah, it was it was neat, it was it was almost a it was a sort of it was a closure on it.

Gary Wise 49:48

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, and that's an amazing opportunity that most people never get, right? Most people they leave a thing that that doesn't always end well, and they don't ever get that opportunity to kind of come back full circle, like ah, you see, you did appreciate what I was doing. Uh, that's amazing. And so now I want to segue into uh your your decision to start working with people that you recognize and not want to get in front of the camera.

Imposter Syndrome And Fear Of Success

Gary Wise 50:13

And you've already hit a few things today, you've already talked about imposter syndrome, and curiously for me, uh do is that something you have to continuously deal with, or did you resolve it to where it no longer flashes back on you again?

John Mollura 50:28

No, it it it it keeps coming up and it has different it shows up in different gyrations, and isn't that something? Yeah, and and a lot of it actually, Gary, is uh I attribute it you know to the enemy, yeah, right? For sure, you know, because you like talking about like like we're not we're not just fighting these physical battles, like we're we're fighting in against the spiritual realm. And I used to think that was like all woo-woo. And then I was like, when I started learning more and became a facilitator for like pain to purpose course for nothing is wasted ministries, I was like, Oh yeah, oh, that's why this keeps coming up and coming up and coming up.

Gary Wise 51:08

A thousand percent, man. I feel like too many people are afraid to admit that they're insecure about something they're going through, and or they don't feel fully prepared with and that's they don't understand that's a facade. You're if you ever feel fully prepared, you're probably delusional, right? Like there's there's always going to be opposition that gets a vote, right? There's always going to be an anomaly that can change the the math or whatever it is. And I tell my students, I say, look, you know, fear and anxiety and excitement all have very similar feelings. It's almost always about your perception and how you're approaching the problem. And how how are you able to maturely kind of handle that moment and not fail to be as good as you as good as you can be in the in there and that at that chance at that time, right? But it's frustrating that it never stops. And Anthony, I don't have to tell myself, like, okay, Gary, but this is something evil that's trying to unfortunately derail you from being comfortable, being confident, being optimistic, being faithful, all these other things, because I start doing that that that self-sabotage that we talked about earlier, that simple sabotage, right? And you start thinking about all the reasons why it couldn't work, and then the other thing is, but what if it does, right? You ever seen that where people are actually afraid for it to work?

John Mollura 52:34

Oh, 100%. I mean, I I I and I've lived that life, I've seen that guy in the mirror.

Gary Wise 52:40

Let's walk that one out real quick. Why what have you learned where people are afraid for the success to come through? You know, what what is it about that?

John Mollura 52:50

I I know, and I'm speaking personally, it's like, well, if I'm successful at that, now I have to maintain that, right? And and it goes up to that, like I talked about that that house of cards that I built up, you know, it's like, oh geez, now I have to operate at this standard. What if I what if I got lucky? Or what if I was just redlined emotionally, like you talked about in in one of your recent um episodes, the different color codes.

Gary Wise 53:21

Yeah.

John Mollura 53:22

You know, the great was it green, yellow, orange, red. Yes, yeah, and then purple things go completely off the rails, which I know isn't really isn't really a color, but yeah, it's like, man, if I was operating in the red to get that successful, it's like I that's not sustainable, right? So we get scared, and then it's like, well, wait a minute, yeah, you might have been in the red for that season for that sprint, but guess what, dude? Like now you have that experience to build upon. So you so now you can start tweaking it and fine-tuning it and get out of that lone wolf mentality that I talked about and start enlisting the help of some other people, some experts that maybe have walked that path or could speak life into you, those trusted advisors, and start building it out that way, so you don't have to continually operate in the red.

Gary Wise 54:08

Yeah. No, no, that's great. And and I think that it's always for me, it's a good sign when somebody will admit that they're almost nervous that it will work because it can be scary to go into a new, a new level, a new space, a new a new phase, a new season, whatever it is. But then it's like, okay, well, let's map that part out. And hopefully they're talking to somebody like like you, a mentor, a coach, somebody that can give them some advice, some words of wisdom to help them lay down that groundwork and how they can share the load with other people. Yeah, because you know, just because you get to that next level doesn't mean you're gonna stay there long, right? Unfortunately, growth is always going to be coming. And I was looking through some of your stuff, and I saw that elite action framework. Is that what you is that your framework that you use when you talk with people, right? I want to jump into that real quick because what I like about frameworks is it gives people essentially checkpoints to follow as they're going down the line, right? Especially in stressful situations. So, how did you get to your framework?

Elite Action Framework Overview

Gary Wise 55:10

How did you lay that out?

John Mollura 55:12

Yeah, so they always say good decisions come from wisdom, and you get wisdom by making a bunch of bad decisions. So that's how I arrived in my framework is I took all the things that I really wrestled with and kept me operating, like, yeah, elite performance, but just stress level, like just pegged all the time. And really, you know, once I got to a place of of more peace, I was able to look back and be like, all right, what are some really big fulcrum points that that I learned to leverage on it? And one one of the first ones that I always talk about is coming right out of the gate is is legacy. And with legacy, a lot of times we think of like, oh, our legacy that we're leading to our kids, like whether it's financial or knowledge, but our legacy we're building in the here and now, like it's not just something like way out in the future. So having a mindset of like where you want to go, like, what's this North Star that you have out there? Because as you know, like you you spend enough time on boats and ships that if they just you know slam the rudder all the way to port and and put the engines up and didn't care where they were going, like you're either gonna go into circles or you're gonna hit something that you didn't want to hit. So it's all about focusing on that that North Star. That's the legacy, you know. That that's one of the first parts. And I help people step through. It's like, you know, what do you want your life to look like? What do you want your life to look like in your relationships? What do you want your life to look like with your health and fitness? What do you want your life to look like in your faith journey? What do you want your life to look like financially? Because a lot of times we don't even answer these questions because going back to what we talked about a couple minutes ago, people don't even want to dream about what it would be. It's like, oh my gosh, what if that happened? Or what if I missed the target? That was my story. I would never have I was I was always the guy that would go into the office, you know, the boss's office every year for the review, and he'd be like, All right, where do you want to be in five years, John? I'm like, I don't know. Right. And I I never wanted to dream because I was always so scared of missing the target. And remember, I had such low self-esteem. I was like, I don't need another thing telling me I screwed up. Because back then I didn't look at when I'd make a mistake or learning, I didn't look at it as learning lessons, I just looked at it as like another ding against me.

Gary Wise 57:47

Yeah.

John Mollura 57:48

So that that's the first part of the framework is like spend some time, like thinking about where you want to go.

Gary Wise 57:54

Yeah, and it's always an exciting thing when people actually hopefully truly consider that. You know, sometimes I see people just they just take that whole thought process, that conversation, and all they hear is that's gonna be a lot of work, right? And but you're you have this amazing life, right? You're still alive, you get to be this this amazing person. Why should you not try to do even better, or at least the best you can do? And if you can't do the best in all the areas, maybe you don't do all of them at the same time, right? But you start to figure out your plan. And and I loved all the little buckets you had under the legacy because I very much like you, I like to parcel them out because then what's your priority? And then we can go ahead and focus on those, but hopefully it excites you, inspires you that maybe you could be productive, right? On more than just working to get a paycheck. And then the other thing about uh comparison to the ships, and I love using ship uh analogies because it's the navy, right? I mean, it's what I did, and one of my favorite things was to look back because you can be on a ship, and if you have no clue where you're going, all you look at the bow, and it's just the horizon, right? But if you look back at the wake, you could tell if you're going crooked, if you're going left, right, whatever it is. And so you might want to always look at where you've been, think about your legacy, where would you like to continue to go? And then what can what do you want that to look like? And then start to put together your plan. That's and so that's your beginning. What's your next part of your framework after legacy?

John Mollura 59:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Legacy As Your North Star

John Mollura 59:27

So after legacy, and and the reason why that's so important is because you need to have that North Star where to go. That's a matter of taking like the small consistent actions to get there, right? Right. So that's just there to have you check your heading, it's not there to intimidate you. So the next part that I always like to talk about is like confidence, right? Like building your confidence up. And I come at it from a different way because as the world teaches you, and like a lot of people think it's like, oh, I'll feel confident when I get that job, I'll feel confident when I get that car, I'll feel confident once my bank hits there, I'll be confident once I get, you know, the the husband, the wife, what the kids, like whatever it is. And I'm always like, no, no, no, no, no, no, bro. Like, confidence doesn't show up before the thing. I have this real simple formula A plus B equals C. A plus B equals C. Action plus bravery equals confidence. You gotta take action. And the bravery part is people are like, I can't be brave. I'm crap scared

Confidence Through Action And Bravery

John Mollura 1:00:27

right now. I'm like, perfect. They're like, what do you mean perfect? I'm like, you can't be brave unless you're scared, dude. You you can't be. Bravery is the act of taking action when you're terror, when you're scared, terrified, whatever it is. That's bravery. So confidence is not a prerequisite, it's a product of taking action when you're scared.

Gary Wise 1:00:52

Amazing. I like it. And hopefully, one of the things I like to tell people is you can do hard things, right? You can do hard things. I'll be out there with my students, we PT every week, and I will put a tough workout on these kids and they get after it, and I'll be yelling the whole time one bite at a time, one bite at a time, and then they'll yell, that's how you know if it matched chief. And you know, because that's the whole point. Like, don't think about all of the reps we're gonna do. Think about this next round and let's get through it. And then when it's all said and done, I try to remind them like you did you just did something that most kids in the school are not gonna do this week. Yeah, you did a hard thing, you could do hard things, and then having that I would say that experience to when you go up, when you get afraid again, just remember you can be brave and you can take action, right? You know, and my other favorite one is I I shoot, move, communicate, right? Shoot, move, communicate, get off the dot, man. If you if you're if you're afraid, take the action of getting off the dot and be brave enough to shoot back, bro. Make a move.

John Mollura 1:01:54

Yeah, yeah, and the other man. Yeah, and the other thing with confidence is the the way we actually build our confidence up. Again, it's not it's not the awards, it's not the the medals, it's not the trophy, it's actually keeping promises to ourselves. That's the core of confidence is keeping promises to yourself. Because if you ask anyone, it's gonna be like, hey, Gary, like if you say you're gonna be somewhere, if you tell someone you're gonna be there, are you there? It's like, yeah, 100%. Like everyone's gonna, most people are gonna be like, Yeah, if I tell someone else I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it. I say, All right, how good are you at keeping promises to yourself? Woo, okay, that might be a little bit different for answer, right? And that's human nature.

Gary Wise 1:02:44

That's perfect. That's perfect, it's perfect. I say that because one of my favorite sayings is you will spend no, you will spend more time with yourself than anyone else in this world, right? If you do not have a good relationship with you, if you cannot trust yourself, then you're gonna struggle with any other relationship in this world, right? And so keeping uh you're you know, keeping yourself locked in to where you're you're proud of that that you said you're gonna do something and you did it, you're you're you're you're able to not lie to yourself, right? You're able to know when you said you're gonna do something, you're going to do it, uh matters insanely, right? And too many people are afraid to admit that they're they don't have a healthy relationship with themselves, yeah. Right. And and they don't believe themselves when they say some things. So that's perfectly said. I love that part.

John Mollura 1:03:33

Yeah, I always say you trust you when you follow through. You trust you when you follow through. And it doesn't have to be big things either, right? Like, we're not talking about like saying, like, I'm gonna climb Killimanjaro and doing it. It's actually the little day-to-day moment-to-moment, minute-by-minute things. Like, if you told your dentist you're gonna flosh your teeth and you're not, guess what? Every night when you go to bed and you don't do that, your brain's paying attention. It's like, up, didn't do what we said we're gonna do. You know, if you promised your wife you're always gonna put your socks in the hamper and you don't, your brain's keeping track until eventually your brain gets enough data, and it's like, I guess we just don't do what we say we're gonna do. So now when the big things come up, now our brain's like, I don't, I don't think you got this. That's where people really find that their confidence is just eroded. So I'm like, the beautiful part about your brain is give it new information. Start keeping the little promises to yourself, start flossing if you said you're going to. Start closing the cabinet doors if you if you promised your wife you were going to. Those little things actually stack up till eventually you're gonna reach a point where it's like, oh, I don't doubt myself as much. I actually have confidence in what I do, so it's like, yeah. So now it's like, you know, we talked about our legacy, our confidence. Now

Keeping Promises Builds Self Trust

John Mollura 1:04:46

what? Now it's a matter of taking action, right? Like just doing the next right thing. And that's the one I really focus a lot on with the coaching that I do with people, especially I have a program called 15-minute navigation checks. And this is like what a lot of like business owners, doctors really lean into because it's a 15-minute call, and it's like good to see you again. All right, we're gonna get right to it. Here's the three things you said you wanted me to check in with you on last week. Bop, bup, bup, bup, bup. How did you do? Did you do number one, two, three? And if they're like, yep, did it's like, all right, virtual high five. If they say no, I didn't do that, I'm like, what story did you tell yourself? Because when we talked last week, that was the most important thing to you. What story did you tell yourself to get you out of action? And that accountability is so powerful. And that's that's why my my my third you know checkpoint for success is action.

Gary Wise 1:05:49

Well, definitely, definitely. And I think the ability to recognize when you don't meet your expectations or you didn't take the action, and you can be honest with why didn't you do it. And do you need to reshape that action or reframe how you're going to approach that action? Because I, you know, one of my biggest frustrations in life is when there's a say-do mismatch, right? Don't say you're going to do something and then you do something completely different. It just completely throws everything off, you know? I I it frustrated me in the service, frustrates me in school. So if we say we're all going to stop and we're going to stand at attention and we're going to say the Pledge of Allegiance and we're not all going to do that, then I get annoyed because we're all supposed to be doing something, right? And if we say if we but the principal doesn't know what's happening out there in all those classrooms, right? And the leaders don't always know what's going on out there on the deck plates or on their on their in their office spaces or whatever it is. But if you can't hold yourself accountable to not violating the say do mismatch, then unfortunately you're going to be you're going to struggle with anybody else because you might be a hypocrite, right? You run that risk of being a hypocrite. And then the other thing would be for me is when it comes to these little things, those little things are unfortunately the things that will compromise your ability to lead people or even yourself, because the people that are around you the most, whether it's your your kids, your spouse, uh, for me of class of kids all day long. If I'm constantly saying, hey, we're not going to do certain things like throw food trays away in the trash can in the classroom, then they see me doing that thing that they may be confused as to, well, hold on, how come that that doesn't make sense? And then that little fracture could then cause other questions downrange. So you've got to be cautious to hold the line and stick to your guns and hold yourself accountable and then have a solid plan of action. I like the 15-minute uh navigation checkpoint meetings because ultimately you don't need a lot more time than that when people come prepared and they're ready to have a conversation, right? And they and they're and they're on the same page. So I I fully can see the value in that conversation. And I appreciate professionals that are doing it because they want to continuously improve and they're asking for someone to hold them accountable at that level, right? Which sometimes

Action With Weekly Navigation Checks

Gary Wise 1:08:06

people need that, but if they're not getting that from other places, you got to go find the people that'll do it for you, right? And that's it that's an important part. Uh, when you're working your way through your checkpoints, is there anything else you'd like to cover there before we move ourselves out of there? One of the things I like from as I was kind of reviewing them real quickly, is I like when you look at the different options, right? You filter out their options and you help them to best recognize what are the best choices to make, but make it faster by filtering out the bad ones.

John Mollura 1:08:35

Yeah, yeah, because leaders, a lot of times, especially now, with all the ways people can communicate. And I counted up the apps a couple weeks ago. I have 20 and I heard you mention this on that on podcast episode I listened to, and I chuckled because I'm like, I just did that. I have 24 apps and comms channels on my phone right now, between like kids' sports, my business, you know, all the all the things.

Focus In A 24 App World

John Mollura 1:09:04

It's like 24 different comms channels, like that's bananas. So it's real hard to to maintain, you know, my my fourth checkpoint, which is like focus, like just keeping focus. So it's like, how do you set yourself up for success? It's like shut your phone off, put your phone on do not disturb, and then like set a timer because you don't want to, you know, break your focus. And that could be either the dings and chirps and stuff going off, or that could be comparing yourself to other people. And when I talk about like taking your eyes off like your goal, where you want to get to, I always go back and talk about the analogy my dad gave me. He played uh football at the University of Pittsburgh, and he would say, Our coaches drilled into us when you get the ball, all you do is you look at the end zone and run. Do not look back to see who's coming after you because the second you go like this, you're gonna break stride and slow down a fraction of a second. That could be the difference when you lose your focus and look side to side at everybody else, that gets you creamed, yeah. Right? So just like just like in football, and it's hard because you know, social media, all the things we're bombarded with you know, basically fabrications of what people's lives are like all the time.

Gary Wise 1:10:22

That's so real, yeah. It's so true. It really is. All you're seeing is what people want to project out into the world. And I mean, some people are gonna be authentic, but even then, they're not giving you the whole story. There's three sides to every story, and you're only seeing typically one of them, right? Yeah, uh, yeah. The other thing I like about the football analogy was what you know, you gotta have faith that the guy behind you is gonna be defending your back, right? You got to have some faith. If you're looking behind you, you don't have a lot of faith in your team, right? Like, right, you need to be looking forward. And I remember what you were talking about from the apps and the cell phone because we all carry around a ton of stress from these cell phones because we're we think we're we're communicating with god knows how many people every day, and you're always wondering what's the next time someone's gonna chirp on that phone and they're gonna need your time. Literally, bro. When I was on the ship, I was on an aircraft carrier once upon a time, and we had we all had these radios, right? Like these radios that you could dial people, you could even make phone calls off the ship on these radios, right? They were freaking good, and I hated it because I could be down in a pump room wrenching it with water spraying on my face, trying to fix a problem, and some guys on the phone, master chief wise, and they're annoyed that I'm not answering the phone. And it's like, bro, like you have no awareness as to what's going on, right? I used to get in trouble because I would just leave my radio on my desk on purpose, and I would my they my chief team member. Yeah, I was, and they would call me up and they're like, You need to be able to answer your radio. I was like, I need to work, like I need to work, and if you guys are always calling me, pulling me off task, that's not gonna, it's I'm not gonna get nothing done. And unfortunately, uh, that's invaded our whole lives, right? And it's a huge part of our lifestyle in 2026, and so knowing that about yourself, if if you're a person that struggles with that focus point, you have got to put those boundaries down, right? You have got to prioritize the things you need to get done according to the personal plan that you're hopefully working towards for your own growth, your own success, your own happiness, your own filling the your own legacy, right? Your own, your own reason, your north star, whatever that thing is, why you got into this partnership, yeah, right. And that you want to hopefully continuously improve. So I I definitely concur. What's your next checkpoint, brother?

John Mollura 1:12:43

After that one, yeah, yeah, we're gonna flow right into it. You you set me up perfectly.

Structure With Time Energy Values

John Mollura 1:12:47

So it's a lot of people call it boundaries. I call it structure in relationship. That's the fifth, that's the fifth checkpoint. So a lot of the structure that we need to have is I would say, like, look, think of like an old medieval city, right? It had walls around it for protection, but it wasn't just all walls, because if it was just all walls, the city would would die inside, nothing was flowing in and out. That's why siege was such an effective battle technique. They cut off the supplies in and out. So, what do they put there? They put gates around these walled cities, and who was at the gates? Guards. And is it guards' job to keep everybody out? No, a guard's job is actually discernment to figure out what gets in and what gets out, what is going to enable that city to stay healthy. So, just like those guards that were practicing discernment in these medieval cities, we need to put guards at the gates of our life. And I broke it down to three separate areas. It's like guards of our energy, guards of our time, and guards of our values. And their job is not to keep everything out, our time, our energy, and our values. It's meant to have these guards in position and with the scripts to teach people. People are always like, well, John, you know, what if my boss comes and tells me, you know, hey, I need this done. I'm like, they're like, should I just tell them no? Because that's that's a uh because my my time guard? I'm like, no. That's where your guard practices discern and says, okay, you know, Carl, when do you need this by? That's like always the first question. I never asked that when I was an engineer. It's like, oh, okay, I'll just do it. And I do it and I'd give it to them. They're like, What's this? I'm like, Well, I worked, I that's what you asked for. They're like, do that. I don't need that for like three weeks. Then I'd be all pissed off because I was like, I just dropped everything I did. They're like, Well, I never asked you to do that. It was on me. I wasn't getting clarity on what was needed. So I teach people the skills to have these guards at their gates and ask the proper questions to guard their time, their energy, and their values. And then also with the structure part, the communication and boundaries part, you you you mentioned it and you set this up great a couple minutes ago. One of my mentors, Skip, he was real big on communication. And with his special forces background, you know, they they were all that was those were always very kinetic, very dynamic situations, especially in active theater in Vietnam. And their command structure was always different than like just traditional military, from what I understand. And he always talked about up, down, and across communication.

Gary Wise 1:15:26

Yep.

John Mollura 1:15:27

Up to the superior so they can make informed decisions, you know, down to the people following you, so they have clear direction on what's expected, when it's needed, where are you going? And then the one a lot of people sometimes forget is across to people with the same leadership tier as you. So if they need to step in or come in with assistance, they're not coming at it cold. So up, down, and across is a really powerful framework that I always like to make sure people know about to increase the structure of their relationships.

Gary Wise 1:15:55

Yes, I agree a thousand percent. I will tell you as a senior enlisted that across is our most powerful communication tool, right? Because we're leveraging our experience across the workforce or across the battle force to best affect up down, right? Because horizontal leadership or being able to understand like that mid-level managers, they can be a force to be reckoned with, especially if they're all on the same team. The challenge that I've found is they don't always trust each other and they're too competitive at that level, and they have to learn that we all can win if we don't care against the credit, right? And there's always there's typically enough food for everyone to eat, right? And so if you're doing it for the right reasons, sharing the credit, sharing the recognition should be a simple thing. And so I concur a thousand percent. And the the best organizations or the best organizational leaders or or functional parts of the team are not afraid to communicate across, right? And that's that and that's an important piece of someone's conversation because if they're afraid to have that conversation with a peer, right? What is that? What is that uh challenge? I love the also the analogy of having the guards on the gates and the discernment. And I appreciated the question, you know, hey, here's the tasker. You know, one of the things we do, we we put people through an initiation for a rank and we overload them with taskers. And the idea there is to teach them how that they can't do everything, and they have to learn how to push back and get effective timeline management. You know, how long do I have to get this one done so I can best prioritize my time? Because if everything's a priority, nothing's a priority, right? Right. And and I I think a lot of people listening to the show is going to definitely relate to your your memory of somebody would give you a job and you would just think that was the most important job because it came down right now, right? And if for them, it was just they were giving you an additional tasker to add to your grinder of sausage as you're making all the sausage flow, right? And but but I see that every day, even with the high school kids that are running in my ROTC program, they get so excited for the newest tasker. And oh, by the way, it's permission to not do the same old thing they've been working on, right? Oh, this is a new shiny object, fun, right? But then you still owe me the shiny the old thing, too. Like, you don't get out of jail for that. You gotta, you know, both are true, but you should have figured out which one has a due date first. So that's great, great, great rep, great ideas, great analogies, great communication tools. I also think that we should have moats around our castles.

John Mollura 1:18:30

Of course, the navy guys need more water, raise the driver, man.

Gary Wise 1:18:35

I gotta take a break, you know. But but I think of as a great analogy by having the discernment, and you said what it was it was energy time, and it was what was the third one again? Values, values, got it. Energy time and values. I loved it, love it. So after that checkpoint of having your your discernments in place, what do you go to after

Momentum That Makes Progress Easier

Gary Wise 1:18:57

that?

John Mollura 1:18:57

Yeah, so the grant the number six one is after we you know think about our North Star, that legacy that we want to leave. We we we're starting to take action despite being scared, you know, or action plus bravery equals confidence. You know, we're taking that action, we're focusing on where we want to get to. We're we're not letting ourselves get distracted, or if we do, we pull ourselves back, recognize, get out of autopilot, become aware when we're distracted, and get focused back up. We've built that structure around, we've got the guards. So now the key is momentum. Momentum is the sixth checkpoint, and that's one not a lot of people don't think about. And momentum is so powerful. And if you think about a train coming out of a station, or even yeah, or we'll go nautical, it takes a while to get an aircraft carrier or any large vessel underway, right? It sure does plug it out and ka chunk, ka chunk, kachunk. Gary, how long what is the distance it takes to stop a fully loaded aircraft carrier? How many miles does it take?

Gary Wise 1:20:03

I'll I will tell you it's one of the most important calculations of your life, right? Yeah, if you're the person and we call it time speed distance, and as long as you've got time speed distance to make those calculations, because driving a ship requires understanding how long it's going to drift, unless you're putting on like you're doing things to slow it down, but like reversing the screws or whatever it is. But if you're just letting it float because you're dead in the water, you can float a long time. You could you could drift a long time, yeah.

John Mollura 1:20:32

Yeah, so that's the importance of momentum. So that's why I I give that example. Normally I use trains, but hey, maybe I'll shift it over to boats now, um, or ships. Sorry. Um, I never know the difference. Um, yeah, yeah. But momentum is so powerful, and we don't give enough credit to it. That's why you know the these little devices here, these phones, are so inner they they interrupt and cause so much havoc. Because every time you break focus, you're breaking your momentum, and now you got to get back up to speed every time. So it's like, yeah, why don't you just keep the momentum going because then you can get further faster and quite frankly with less effort? So momentum is is the thing that once you get all this going, keep it humming along and moving instead of stopping and starting and stopping and starting.

Who Coaching Helps Most

Gary Wise 1:21:26

Good, good, and that's and so then once you go through all these checkpoints with people, what who have you found looks for you the most to have these conversations? Have you found that it's any any specific type of person so far? Is it professionals primarily? Is it typically adults? Uh, are you kind of across the board talking to anybody that's in this that's in the space and just wanting to get better at figuring out their their own posture and leadership and or mentorship? What's your kind of what's your experience been there?

John Mollura 1:21:58

Yeah, so so as with anything, as you get get some reps and get some get some data under your belt, you really are able to fine-tune it. So back it up a couple years ago, like I was willing to work with anybody. And what I found, the the sweet spot that I operate in are you know, folks that I would say have had gone through enough life and made enough mistakes to realize that they don't know everything. So, you know, like like real young people, like unless they've been in the workforce well, a lot of times the frameworks I teach, it doesn't land for them. You know, they got youth on their side, like I'll be able to figure it out, I can grind it out. So the sweet spot of people that I really work with and my message really resonates with are people that are coming into that middle level leadership, and especially the the top leadership that are maybe starting their own medical practice or been in their own medical practice and are just kind of stuck, or they just you know got promoted to chief operations officer and they're kind of like, whoa, okay, now what? How do I prioritize stuff? So there's folks that have you know decades of professional experience and know that the way they've done it maybe isn't sustainable, or maybe they recognize it's not going to help them get to the next level. So those are the people that I really my message really resonates with, and that I know that makes sense to me.

Gary Wise 1:23:19

And I'll tell you the other thing for me that makes a lot of sense when it comes to this is the conversation part matters, right? Like the real human interaction, the ability to have like this conversation, which is what I love about the digital age, and COVID helped this a lot. People can now jump on these kinds of calls and have these really good conversations and still be, you know, their time can be respected, they don't got to commute long distances. You can help people across the country because you've got technology. But there's a million you know, philosophies out there, but there's something special about having a connection with another person that learns your situation, can help analyze it, and then give you solid feedback and accountability as you work to get better, right? I think that for me, you know, I get that all the time with my kids at school, and I got it when I was in the service. People would seek me out for these for just this conversation, right? Because they would want to validate that if they don't know what they don't know, and then they want to work on it to get better, and then they want to come back and hear you're doing a good job, brother. Keep doing it, or you let yourself down, boss. And here's what I think, right? It's not the end of the world. Here's how you go again. And one thing those high performers probably struggle with is finding people that will give them that valid that feedback they need while also being in a space where it's like I can be honest and vulnerable about it, and you're not gonna add extra layers of stress on me, uh, like unfortunately, some other parts of their relationships in the world might. So I could see that being very, very value added for sure.

John Mollura 1:24:56

Yep, yeah. And and I always tell people someone will come to be like, oh man, I was nervous to get on this call today. I'm like, why? They're like, Well, I didn't want you to yell at me because I didn't do XYZ. And I I say the the the stone cold truth, my friend, is it doesn't matter to me if whether you do it or not. I love you, I want to see you succeed, but this this is your life. Yeah, I'm I'm here to walk with you and hold you accountable. But at the end of the day, this is your life. So if you're not gonna do it, I'll help you unpack that, but that's on you.

Gary Wise 1:25:31

Get it, you know, and that that and that just shows they respect your time, right? And then and then they also unfortunately know that they let themselves down, but at least they're opening with that part and then they're willing to they're ready to talk about it and hopefully they can have a better week. And do you usually find those touch points are weekly with the people you're working with, or are they do they fall out, do they stretch farther than that?

John Mollura 1:25:54

Yeah, I I'm I'm pretty dil, I'm diligent about keeping them on a weekly cadence, especially for those navigation checks, because it's all about you, you you say you want to get somewhere, so the easiest way to do that is to keep that momentum going. And a week, you know, as you know, it goes quick. And how many times have you gotten to Friday and you're like, Oh my gosh, I didn't do that? It's like, but time and time again, like I'll get on a call with someone and be like, dude, I realized I saw it pop up that we were talking on Wednesday and it was Monday, and I hadn't done anything. And I'm like, they're like, I cranked it out, I nailed it. I'm like, good, I'm like, good. Accountability is a beautiful thing.

Gary Wise 1:26:38

Awesome, man. Now, did you write a book as well? Or have you have you published your checkpoints or your have you published your elite action framework?

Free Resources And Masterclass Offer

John Mollura 1:26:46

Yeah, so the check, so no to the book, not yet. Um, that's a question I get I've been getting asked with more frequency. So I think I need to put that on uh on my legacy thing here in the Nazi Distant Future. But the six checkpoints for success, if they go to johnmalore.com and I very creatively have a button called free stuff, they can download um my elite action flight plan, which has those six checkpoints for success, and also get access to a free masterclass, the navigator's masterclass, helping them how to shift out of you know, those mentalities where maybe they're drifting or they're you know just distracted, or maybe a blamer mentality of like, ah, the world's happening to me, or that self-critical mentality where that inner critic's just beating you up. And I teach them very practical single questions to start shifting the conversation, what I call the seeker, which is a posture of awareness and curiosity. So those are available at Johnmallur.com slash free stuff.

Gary Wise 1:27:48

Amazing, nice. Uh, and I'll make sure we get all that out via uh our marketing tools as well once we start to publish this episode.

Rapid Fire And Closing

Gary Wise 1:27:56

Uh, John, as I get ready to land this thing, I usually go through some rapid fire. questions and so you got a loosen up yeah here we go man hey man all right so on the ship on the weekend saturday night it's like a holiday for us and we're always looking forward to either the pizza or the chicken wings so if you had to pick one of those two which one would you pick uh pepperoni pizza all day long pepperoni pizza all day long i like it all right uh so on the ship we sleep in a place called the birthing right and this is where all the racks are at those are the three high beds that we all sleep in the bathrooms and some people like to go to the birthing cleaners because it's air conditioned up there because you know they keep our birthings pretty cold so people can sleep it's quiet um or we have these other things called working parties and working parties are typically when we need a lot of people to go do something big right like move heavy things bring on all the food bring on all the mail uh if i was to ask you which one would you rather go to would you rather go do the birthing cleaners or would you rather go to the worker party is the birthing cleaners where I'd get to go to sleep you very well could go to sleep yes well at this age I'd probably rather go to sleep but uh John 20 years ago I don't want to be in the mix no no I get it and look sir some some of my friends that I said birthing cleaners because they know they're gonna get a nap in once they're all done cleaning right and they're it's just it's there's nothing wrong I respect it right okay uh we're gonna watch a movie would you rather watch a De Niro movie or a Pacino movie ooh I think De Niro De Niro looking back on your life have you have a favorite place you've ever visited Death Valley California what was it about Death Valley that you liked so much we were we were doing extended um test operations out at China Lake naval weapons station and we we had a very rare day off so we took the rental car um across the Mojave and I just remember cresting up over the mountains you know I think they were like 1000 foot mountains or something there's a pass that we went through and just this sense of peace just was I I can't even describe it.

John Mollura 1:30:17

We were just driving and I just had the sense of peace and it was it was just absolutely gorgeous.

Gary Wise 1:30:23

And then on the ride home that night there was no moon and we pulled over and just in the middle of the desert like nothing right and Vegas is like hundreds of miles away and we looked up at the sky and it looked like someone just had like took a bucket of glitter and just threw it right up in the heavens and it is probably the most awe-inspiring thing I've ever seen that was probably one of my favorite days on travel I I can only imagine I mean getting away from the life of the city right being able to see the scar the stars right and and then I grew up in Utah and so I can definitely relate to the desert and just that something about the desert speaks to my soul right like something about that area. So I I can relate that's awesome yeah all right here we go next question if you looking back on your life what do you think was one of the most challenging uh qualifications or achievements you've ever had to do or you've ever accomplished the engineering degree because it was so long and it was it was grueling.

John Mollura 1:31:32

I mean it was designed to weed you out and I remember sitting there in freshman year and they had all the incoming freshmen in engineering sit down.

Gary Wise 1:31:39

We were in an auditorium they said look to your left and look to your right both of those people will be gone by the time you graduate one in one in three complete this program I thought whoa okay so I think because of the the the time under tension for that that was probably the thing that I'm most proud of for having done it's a big deal and I think the other thing I tell my students about is I tell them you know having a college education is not really so much about what you learned it's about showing that you could finish what you started right it's about showing you could finish what you started so that's a good one.

John Mollura 1:32:13

All right um do you have a favorite movie or TV series I love the movie Point Break the original with Swayze and Keanu I love that's my favorite movie man I love it every every memorial day I pull it out to start summer because I live right on the shore that's awesome okay I appreciate that that's amazing all right uh would you rather be independent or on a team now now I'd definitely rather be on a team I spent a lot of my life just wanting to be independent and couldn't figure out why I was so lonely most of the time but I'll tell you as a person who kind of does a lot of things on my own steam as much as I would like to have somebody that that would help me right that would be helpful God it's hard to find them.

Gary Wise 1:33:06

Yeah you know especially people that see the vision right that see the vision and that that can help you get there and then you know it's and that want to continue to go for the long haul.

John Mollura 1:33:16

I mean I agree I'm the same way I like to be on a team but it's uh it's almost hard to find people that can keep up you know it's it's a tough one so well that's why that's why things like this podcast are so powerful is because it helps people find their tribe right right and we we always talked about this when I worked in in aerospace engineering like we we worked with the little astronauts like we made their suits for them we'd always say not everyone gets to be an astronaut like people come in for an interview it's like yep yeah they're not gonna cut it so it's okay to be elite and hold out for that because the whole reason why I have the elite framework is people are like wasn't that like kind of like dissing people I'm like no that's being eliteist that's saying you're better than someone else being elite means that you hold yourself to a higher standard. That's all that means like the difference between an elite athlete and someone like me is we both run but the people in the Olympics just run to a much higher standard.

Gary Wise 1:34:17

That's why they're elite no that's a really well put statement and I'll tell you for me that why that really connects uh when I first retired from the service I started going to a local church and I was going to a men's group and I messed around one time and they asked me to lead something and the very next thing I know they're like Gary you're pretty good at this can you run the men's group and I ran up like a year right and I'm like dude I just retired from the military the pastor's like you're pretty good at this I'm like yeah thanks bro I appreciate you yeah your tax colours at work I was trained how to do this you know I worked my heart you know I I love doing it it was great but then I had to step away from that because ultimately I was exhausted from working all day plus now running this men's group and what what I love about the podcast is that it turned into my supplementary group because I men and women are on the on the on here but I get have some really solid conversations and it just checks that block and then like you said it makes it easier for people to find you that are looking for you right yeah um and I concur with that assessment as well so I I like it. Okay do you have a personal leadership philosophy would it be your elite action framework yeah I mean and and I I think it it if I had to boil it down I'd say just do what you say you're going to do. Okay I mean that that's that's that's I like your A plus B equals C too right that's another good part of it. Yeah um and A plus B equals C is action plus bravery equals confidence. Yep. So one of my sayings is it's in my email signature it says timing plus preparation equals destiny right and that's one of my favorite ones that I leverage. So good to go. All right so in the Navy in the Chiefs mess so I was a chief petty officer in the United States Navy and we are that senior enlisted leadership corps for the Navy right we're a maritime fraternal organization and we have these uh guiding principles uh right the first one is deck plate leadership which essentially means you're like leading by example there is institutional and technical expertise which means you understand everything about your institution as well as the technical parts of what the nuts and bolts are doing right that's an important thing for us there's professionalism which is not just you look good in uniform but it's like you are a professional like you take it serious that we like we were a military organization and we were good to go out to sea and fight the bad guys right we were professionals at that there was character there's loyalty uh active communication which is that up down and side to side and then there's sense of heritage is we always want to make sure to remember where we came from uh out of those does any one of those resonate with you the most oh geez you want me to repeat them yeah that'd be fantastic I think I have my answer but yeah that's far away yeah so deck plate leadership which is like which is like you know frontline leadership or demonstrating my the the things by example institutional technical expert uh professional there's character loyalty active communicator or heritage yeah I would say I'd say character with uh communication is a very close second definitely okay and and based on our conversation that makes perfect sense because ultimately and this is one of our beliefs is if you don't have any of those if you're missing any of those you're gonna struggle right uh but the idea there is to recognize well which ones can you improve on because we're no one's ever done you're always trying to keep up with them. Yeah so I like it. Would you rather lead or follow hmm I would I I excel at being like a second in command is that is that is that an exo is my is that my turn I get my terms right yeah yeah that's that's where I really excel you know what's funny about that analogy or about that example is my strategy was always getting near the guy right that was the main guy and then I always ended up just logically being the next guy that they picked to be the guy because I would I never had to be the guy I just wanted to be working with the guy or helping the guy bring him value be a force multiplier right and then that guy will eventually leave and hey Gary do you want to be the guy and uh I had to eventually learn how to say no thank you but for a long time I said sure right I'll do it people will say how you make master chief in 16 years well I always said yes you know I always said throw me in coach yeah give me in but then I got out of the navy you know 15 years early because I was I was cooked I had to go do something else right yeah that'll happen all right john man I think we are done do you have any saved rounds or any alibis or johnmalora.com is your e is your website right that's it yeah and there's not a lot of john malora's out there so john malora underscore on Instagram and john malora on youtube and john malora on linkedin and john malora on Facebook and uh all things john malora man i really appreciate you taking the time to join me and have this conversation it was very very it was amazing i think i know that my students are gonna get a lot out of it and what i love about doing this is they get to hear me have conversations with other people that are very similar to what we talk about at school right and they like oh he would have said that to me in the classroom and it's this he's the same with these with these adults out there in the world i'm the same with everybody and and then they're gonna hear your responses and they're gonna be like oh well master chief and him are on the same page so they're both making sense that's money must be on to something so thank you so much for the time brother appreciate it yeah thanks Gary yeah man you have a great night everybody out there listening to the sounds of our voice please check out johnmalure.com i'll make sure i put the information in down in all of the inform in on the youtube video and all that stuff and in the podcast webisode and go check out john all right brother have a good night man it was good talking to you all right thanks Gary yeah bye