What If Your Grief Could Build Something Good

A Hollywood career can look like the dream while quietly draining the life out of you. We sit down with Preston Zeller, an award-winning filmmaker and growth leader, to talk about the moment he realized the “successful” path wasn’t making him whole and what it took to rebuild his faith, his work, and his sense of purpose.

Preston walks us through growing up with music and storytelling, getting indoctrinated into film culture, and then colliding with the realities of the entertainment industry: politics, image, and the pressure to chase power instead of peace. From there, we get into the leadership side, including how he learned marketing technology by testing ideas in the real world, how reputation creates unexpected opportunities, and why communication is the skill that keeps teams healthy when the stakes are high.

The heart of the conversation is grief. After losing his brother to a sudden drug overdose, Preston commits to painting every day for a year and eventually turns that process into his feature-length documentary, The Art Of Grieving. We talk about art as a practical way to process emotion, the cost of unresolved grief, and what it looks like to grow through loss instead of getting stuck.

We also explore Psalm Log, Preston’s AI-powered Bible app built for Christian journaling and reflection. He explains why most prayer journals get abandoned, how AI can surface patterns and scriptural guidance responsibly, and what it takes to design with empathy and safety around sensitive topics. If you care about faith-based leadership, mental health, grief support, and responsible AI, this one goes deep. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

Gary Wise 0:28

All right, hello everybody. Aloha, Hafa Adai, Ohaio Go Zai Mas I must, all of the things. Thank you all very much once again for joining me. I still continue to be Gary, Gary Wise, Wise Leadership Solutions. And this is the Words from the Wise Podcast coming to you straight out of Oakala, Florida. Thank you once again for everybody that takes the time out to listen to these shows, to watch our stuff on YouTube. Uh, recently we crossed 500 subscribers on YouTube. So that was pretty freaking amazing. So thank you all very much for doing that and just continuing to support the show. Today, today, man, we have an exciting guest on the show. Uh, this gentleman's gonna come to us. His name is Mr. Preston, and he's gonna be talking to us today. You know, he comes from the place of focusing on AI. He has he has done some things where he helped companies such as Zoom Info and a cloud guru just scale above and beyond where they wanted to be. He's an award-winning filmmaker where we're gonna talk about uh the process he went through grieving for the loss of his brother. Uh, we're gonna talk about his new app, Psalm Log, which talks about how to leverage AI and the Bible. So we're gonna hear more about that for sure. And ultimately, we're gonna have a leadership conversation. And I thank you all for joining us. So, without further ado, Mr. Preston Zeldis, how you doing, man?

Preston Zeller 1:52

Gary, thank you so much for having me on. Um, it's a pleasure to be with you today.

Gary Wise 1:58

Oh man, you know, I really appreciate you reaching out and asking to be a part of the show and to to share some time with the listeners. Uh, your journey has been it's been incredible, man. And I'm really looking forward to hearing more about it.

Preston Zeller 2:11

Well, thanks. Yeah. Uh you know, we all have our own story. I think it's just trying to make sense of it, which is one of the hardest things to do as you get older.

Gary Wise 2:20

And it's but it's a calling, right? Like at the end of the day, I I believe passionately that part of our calling is to share our journey so that other people maybe can feel they can feel like they're not alone, right? They can feel like there there is a connection, there are there's other people out there that can relate with them, and then hopefully we can then connect the dots to other things as well, right?

Preston Zeller 2:45

Sure, sure.

Gary Wise 2:46

Yeah, now you're out in Arizona, correct?

Preston Zeller 2:49

Yeah, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona, Mesa area to be exact, but yeah, Phoenix area.

Gary Wise 2:54

Awesome. I used to live in Peoria.

Preston Zeller 2:57

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not too far away.

Gary Wise 2:59

Yeah, not that did you grow up in Arizona?

Preston Zeller 3:02

Uh, I grew up in well, kind of a combination of Southern and Northern California, but like my I guess

Creative Mind Meets Analytical Mind

Preston Zeller 3:10

formidable adolescent teenage years were Southern California and Orange County and um Irvine, you know, Lake Forest, those areas, and then went to college down there too.

Gary Wise 3:22

Okay, so when you went to college, well, I guess I can back that up today in school. I was teaching the students, uh pretty much giving them different uh scenarios for what they could do after high school, right? And we were laying the groundwork for like you could do a trade school, you could do like a two-year college, you could do a university, you could do service in the military, you could just get a J O B, right? And go figure out what life's gonna do for you. Did you know in high school that you wanted to get involved in the tech space, like in the computer world?

Preston Zeller 3:55

No, I don't think that became apparent till later. I mean, I was uh I was a musician, I've been a musician my whole life, and so I was uh performing music all the time, you know, with you know, performing, I was um playing with bands, you know, all the time. And so that was my main passion. Although when it when it came to uh school, I remember, and this was still, I think, when you know, at least I think the the perception of the value of college has shifted a lot, but I was I was my parents are part of that, you know, kind of generation that's like, oh, if you don't get college, you're gonna be a failure. And so it was like, okay, well, you need to go to college. I thought I was gonna go be an architect. Um, I took a CAD class. I mean, this is um very early 2000s. I took a CAD class, didn't like it, but I started getting into Photoshop. Um, I had always loved film and was just fascinated by storytelling and film and that kind of technology. And so I did I did film, I did fine art in high school, and ultimately said, okay, I'm gonna go apply to film school and research those, and then ended up at Chapman University. So I I mean, I I've you know, you will find this as a common thread for for me at least, is that I have a very analytical brain, but also very creative side as well. And so I can go from this this very abstract way of thinking and and being visually creative and in other ways into this almost like an engineer mode. And I, you know, I've always tried to make sense of that, and uh filmmaking in some ways can satisfy that, but you know, that that's not the only thing, of course, I've been doing so.

Gary Wise 5:42

No, that's an interesting uh I would say explanation, and you are what you would be very you are very unique, brother, because what I have found is that people that tend to be more artistic struggle more with the analytical stuff, right? Some people that are extra analytical struggle with the art, like for me, I'm not a painter, bro. Like ultimately, people are my paint, right? Like, I I'm not the guy that I've never learned to play a musical instrument, but I I like to work with you know in challenging environments and help people through them, and so I think that makes you very interesting that you have a little bit of both, right? You're but you're what's that left and right brain action going on there, yeah. You learned how to leverage that throughout your life, right? That's awesome.

Preston Zeller 6:23

Well, yeah, I think some part of me has always felt that if I ignore the other side, then I'm uh I'm letting a piece of me die. Because I'm also just I'm I'm so I'm kind of like uh curious to the point of where it's like I'll punish myself just for the curiosity's sake of this is so interesting. I need to go down that road and just see what happens. And then, you know, sometimes you take you take a pinky toe into something and you're like, yeah, it's not not very good. But then you're like, Well, I'll stick a foot in, I'll stick a leg in, you know, and see what happens. And so, you know, I just I love there's an excitement of trying a new thing, and I you know, I think that's part of like the entrepreneurial side for me as well. Um, and that can be its own problem because then you can just get addicted, then you get addicted to starting things, but never seeing things through, which you know, if you don't figure that out soon enough, you you start to go, why is nothing working?

Gary Wise 7:20

Yeah, you're you're real good on the startup, you're not good on getting it to where it can run stationary, and then you can maybe transmit it over to somebody else.

Preston Zeller 7:27

Yeah, right.

Gary Wise 7:28

I was talking with the kids today about the value of an education of an education or the value of a collegiate education. And one of the things that I was telling them is for me anyway, when I hear somebody's finished uh a piece of formal, you know, after high school education, even high school, you get the diploma or you get the associates or the bachelor's. One of the first things that I think about is well, at least they finished something they started, right? Like for me, that's an indicator, right? It just shows you can be taught, you can learn, you can you can probably acclimate yourself to some sort of information and then use it as a way to then communicate at higher levels, but you also you do finish, which matters because unfortunately, not a lot of people in this world uh always finish what they start, as you kind of alluded to. Now, when you were in high school, was it hard for you to transition? Do you remember was it hard for you to transition to college, or was it not that complicated for you?

Preston Zeller 8:30

No, I mean, I I was uh I was very done with high school after like a year, and you know, I I I'm not uh school was not my jam, anyways. Uh I I was so I the things that really got me ticking were figuring out how to make money and then also pouring as much time as I could into my creative pursuits, and so again, you know, it was a lot of music for me at the time. Um, I I wasn't really like a partier in high school. I played poker with friends. We would listen to jazz music and play poker. Um, and so that was like I just I never really quite felt like I fit into the you know normal, I guess, um mainstream crowds in high school. So I was just and I moved my first day of high school. That was a big thing. I didn't grow up with you know this this constant group of people from the time I was like really young. Um, literally the first day of high school, I walked into like third period in a new school, you know, far enough away from my other school, I knew nobody. Um it was like a 25-minute drive or something, and that was it. You know, it was like I'm getting just tossed into this other world. It was very multicultural. So this is Irvine for people who don't know, so it's a huge mix of like Middle Eastern and Asian populations. So you might hear California, Southern California, and think uh, you know, maybe it's heavily white, but no, I was like a minority there, so that was an interesting dynamic, too. Um but I I think uh it was just very difficult to connect to um certain groups eventually found my groove, but we were all I don't know, I'd say independent thinkers to some degree. So by the time I remember I moved myself to college, if that tells you anything. Yeah, my my parents were on a trip. Uh so I was just like, bye, got you know, had my stuff and um just moved into my dorm, and it was it was all stuff I felt like I had been waiting years to do, and I just you know there are other things there too, with um my brother and just wanting to move on from that.

Gary Wise 10:45

Were you in college? Uh so how long apart, how far given an age were you and your brother? And is just was it just the two of you, or did you guys have other siblings?

Preston Zeller 10:56

No, so I have a younger sister, she's about three years younger. He is four years older than me, was four years older than me. So, um, so yeah, the first yeah, some context there, and maybe some people listening who are younger might uh understand this, but uh first two years um in high school, I shared a room with my brother. Well, he was in college, I was in high school, so you know he was going to Cal State Fullerton, which uh, you know what isn't that too far from us, but he was like super into the um the tuner scene, like kind of I don't know, the white cholo culture in Southern California. You know, he was he just he wanted uh I mean he grew up on Tupac and Biggie Smalls and wanted to be a gangster, you know. I I don't know. So uh but that was his that was a scene, and he was he was living a very different life, but then we'd go sleep in the same place. So the first two years of school were just um uh kind of really pretty crappy, and so um there was there was the combination of things there that made me go, man, I just need to get away and find out who I am outside of the craziness of this, right?

Gary Wise 12:17

So right, so when you were in college, or because you were talking about your friends playing poker, right? One of the things that I've noticed for young people is they're always looking for their tribe, they're always looking for a group of people that can be like their friends or their space or their peace or whatever. Uh, did you find that at any time during high school or college? Like, did you find a group of friends that you really felt like you clicked with and it was just a really good friend group?

Preston Zeller 12:46

Yeah, I mean, high school I did eventually. I think the last year there was a a certain group of us who I again I think we were all kind of uh I don't know if like misfits was the word. We were just a little different in the way we functioned, like it we we all felt like we didn't fit into any one group, and so we found each other, and that was kind of the best we made of it. Um, so that that was good, and we'd come back from breaks and see each other. Um, I I wouldn't say we were all like uh I'm not like best friends with any of those people to this day, but okay, we were, I think, for a time in a good spot. But you know, when I went to college, the first thing that came to mind was join a fraternity, you know, when we get around a group of people who are um more, I don't know, all I knew is like a fraternity was an instant social group, right? So I went down that road.

Gary Wise 13:40

Well, but that was an interesting experience, though. I mean, for me, I was always looking for I'm a guy that moved around a lot growing up as a kid. Uh I'm a guy that listened to Tupac and Biggie Smalls and probably was very similar to your brother in that white cholo culture kind of a phase, right? Yeah, so I get all that, you know. And I'm 48 years old, so I'm not really sure what our ages would be, similarity, but it's just it'd be similar. Yeah, maybe maybe it's a generational thing, I don't know. But I I was always looking for that friend group, and so I would always gravitate to kind of not the best people because they were the ones that were more accepting, right? And then uh in the military, I I eventually got to a place where I became a chief petty officer and I got initiated into our we have a fraternal organization, and and so I have a lot of respect for uh organizations like a fraternity or like a sorority, provided everything is is is well done and well thought out and everyone cares for each other the right way. But in life, it's not usually organizations that are bad, it's unfortunately people that are not always the best, right?

Preston Zeller 14:43

That's that is that is what it is, it's the people all always, yeah.

Gary Wise 14:47

Yeah, so when you looked at that experience though, because for me, I think for a person doing the college thing, the experience is one of the main selling points, right? You know, the social experience, yeah, yeah, the for sure, bro. Like for me, I'm interested because I used to my first ship was in Japan, and we would all be like, This is our college experience, but it's not right, but it's not like we had our own military experience, but college is a whole different animal, and you were at it a college with a lot of artists, right?

Preston Zeller 15:22

Yeah, yeah.

Gary Wise 15:24

Now, is what is your college primarily art or is it all kinds of things?

Preston Zeller 15:28

Nothing I mean, so I went to Chapman University, which is um a pretty small uh private school in um Orange, California. And uh it's kind of the joke was like, well, you know, we're rich families in LA who didn't want to send their kids to USC, they would send them to this school. Uh because USC is in the ghetto if anyone doesn't know that. Um but, anyways, uh yeah, it it was Chapman was a really nice school. Um, it was, I think, split pretty evenly, had a pretty big arts program across um the film school is is very well known there and highly ranked and all that kind of stuff, but um pretty well known business school, and and they have a focus around real estate, their law school is pretty popular. Um, and then the they have a I think a dance and music program that are um pretty good there, so not a sports school, so um, you know, you wouldn't go there for that, but but yeah, so I'd say a mix of like business and um at least when I went there, business and and arts. So okay, amazing.

Gary Wise 16:37

And then when you came out of when you when you graduated

Film School Reality And Industry Politics

Gary Wise 16:40

from Chapman, did you uh did you have an idea what you wanted to do right after graduation? Did you know like, hey, I want to go right into making films?

Preston Zeller 16:50

Yeah, I mean, so you college is interesting because I and I really think it depends, uh, of course, it depends on you know where you go, but um we I was in the film department, right? Um and you really get indoctrinated into like all things film, like you think that's the world, the world evolves around film, and and it's it's the end all be all. And so you spend four years with a bunch of other people convincing yourself that hey, we're all gonna go be, we're gonna make our break, you know. Yeah to you to use like a um, I think a film industry term, but you're gonna go produce something, you're gonna edit something, you're gonna write something, act in something, whatever it is, and and it's gonna get you on the map. And um that industry is um it's uh you know, it's kind of like the West Coast version of DC, I'd say, in in some manner of like it's very political, very um who you know, now what you know, on steroids. Um you know, the first thing people would ask you when you go out is you know, who do you work for? You know, so that's like a measure of are you worth talking to or not? So, you know, so so I spent a lot I I invested a lot of time between the film and the music industry when I was in college, uh, worked at the Cannes Film Festival and studied abroad and and that carried over uh connections there as well. And there were, you know, famous actors or you know, crew people's kids who went to school, so you knew them, and but ultimately you get out to answer your question and you're like, what am I gonna do? I I graduated 09. So I was right coming off the heels of a um pretty janky economy. Um, and so I um I went to work in the for one of the big talent agencies, and for people who don't know what those are, um, a talent agent represents um it's sort of like a sports agent, but you're a very highly high profile kind of um sales broker. So you you know you represent the the writers, directors, anyone, any of the crew that are worth representing, actors, all that kind of stuff. Um, musicians have them, and you're brokering the terms of all their contracts and all that kind of stuff. So I I I got to work in that arena, which is weird. It's it's a very strange space. Um, but all that to be said, um, yeah, I mean that's that's where I started out, but I crashed out of it pretty quickly because I saw people who appear to be successful and no one seemed happy.

Gary Wise 19:41

That that is a tale as old as time, right? Um, it is the social media sphere of 2026 where people portray themselves one way using these different apps or these different social media profiles, but what you you what you don't know is what's really going on behind the scenes or what their struggle is. And unfortunately, and as you were talking about that time you spent in California after your graduation, I was thinking like that's like at that time, that's like the Mecca, that's like the the Mecca of film, right? And now it might be leaving California now and going other places, but for a long time, California was known as the place to go to have a film get made or to have the right people in the room to fund your project or whatever it is, right? So I could see that analogy very well, having these power players in the in that community and going to that college there, that university that a lot of people with connections might go to and have connection to, and trying to then want to get into that industry. So I I could I would I could really see all of that, and then my head, my in my imagination, I'm thinking of that waitress who's just goes there trying to get discovered, right? And everyone has an edge, everyone's trying to figure things out, but then everyone's also going through going through tough times. So when you started recognizing that there was a lot of people delusionally presenting success, but having this facade or this mask of real struggle behind that. Now, were you still single at that point, or were you married or in a relationship at that point?

Preston Zeller 21:19

Yeah, no, I I was single. Um you know, I think an interesting caveat too is that the because this was like oh nine, 10. I mean, so I was in college 2005, 2009. Okay. Um, iPhone came out 2007, social media didn't really blow up till 2010s in like a really in the way that we know now where it's like it's really pretty fundamentally changed things. So it just it's it still seemed like there wasn't that seismic shift yet. I mean, YouTube was like hardly a thing, you know?

Gary Wise 21:53

No, it was we were coming out of the MySpace age, right?

Preston Zeller 21:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, Facebook was like still in colleges only. or whatever. So people were doing it for the vine. Yeah, for the vine. Yeah. So it was still, and we and we were coming off uh again, you know, like the 0708 financial crisis. So yeah, you know, right around this time it was like, okay, um I I and I had some I had some just bizarre experiences there too. And I was I was mostly working in like the kind of sort of producing side of things um at that time, still doing music. But I just overall was like I started to feel so empty. And what was interesting was I was still kind of in the party scene there and I was working with you know all the assistants who work with in that in the sort of agent manager space um they would all go out together. So we'd all go out to like the same clubs and all that kind of stuff. And it was just like what are we doing? This is like college 2.0 except we're like kind of functioning working really long desk hour jobs being someone's lackey and in this in this space where ultimately you're like okay people are people don't care about the money as much as they did getting the power and the prestige and that's why you know not there's people that didn't care about that but you know what I'm saying there. It's like people kind of prioritize things in a certain way and and you're just constantly jocing for that. And I felt myself getting sucked into that. Right around this time though I was having a real spiritual crisis. I was raised in a Christian home basically walked away from that and I felt like really okay I think God's trying to grab my attention and go

The Hollywood Apartment Wake-Up Call

Preston Zeller 23:40

you know and I had this distinct moment in Hollywood where I was looking at um an apartment where it felt like he was going hey if you want to run if you're really running this hard for me I'll let you go but if you come back I'll change your life so I had a I had a decision to make that that's a pretty uh pivotal analogy that's a pivotal statement bro if you really want to run I'll let you go but if you come back I'll change your life right and and to recognize in that space and you said you were looking at an apartment and you just had that that intuition it was a it was a moment in time I'm not you know I'm not uh exaggerating this because I had been feeling it and I have to I have to paint the picture of where this place was because it was just it was so weird. I was I was in between like temp jobs I at the time I lived kind of Culver City area it was a decent apartment but lease was up roommate wanted to leave whatever and I was just scraping by so I'm looking at what can I afford and if anyone who's ever done that dance of what can I afford and you start to realize it's really not not much of anything it really sucks because so I was I was on Craigslist um and I'm just looking at okay what is the least crappy thing that I could go move into. Right. And I go into like central Hollywood which Hollywood is just like kind of a cesspool place the city I mean it's like whatever you know it's um so uh I I go to this place that looks like it's an old actor's lodge you know so if you go back to the 40s 30s all that kind of stuff I mean people were just coming in droves and you know they'd put up temporary housing and whatnot. So it's in the middle of the city there all these like weird little like almost like tiny homes but they were old tiny homes and then there was this communal living building and that's what it was it was for a room in this building and I go uh I go around back and there was a gym. Well the gym had probably a thousand flies on it in the summer heat just you know buzzing around this place. This woman comes flying out of the building with like a half-lit cigarette like you gotta see the room you know I'm not exaggerating and I'm like yeah when the one other guy's next to me and like I got competition we go up to this room this dude's taking notes on a notepad like you know some reporter I don't know what and I just I went in it and I'm like what am I doing right it was a gross room uh very anyways very weird so driving away from that I was just kind of dumbfounded and I'm like what am I why am I actually still here that's and I had and that's where I had that that urge or that calling so I would imagine you heed the call and then and you decided to come back what did that look like for you like what was the significance of that moment like what did you have to do to return well yeah so uh uh it it took some uh sort of drastic decision so uh I I remember I went home I don't know that night next day or something like that my brother happened to be home and you know so this is post-college my brother's squarely in the military at this point so you know he he was in uh I think based out of Colorado at the time oftentimes deployed he happens to be home and I'm like man you know I've always wanted to fly planes like um maybe I'd join the air force um and you know my brother is in the army so he's like we should join the army you know so I'm like no you know I I I just set this ridiculous bar of like I'm gonna go fly planes you know right so I I start um that became my new obsession I'm like you know what I'm gonna shelf all these stupid silly dreams that I've had of being in the entertainment industry and what I thought you know being a musician was and all that kind of stuff and um producing film and I'm gonna go uh you know took the AFOQT and go do all the things to make my packet which took a while get referral letters blah blah blah and um in that that was the thing that started kind of getting me straightened up and so I started taking my physical health more seriously all this stuff and in the meantime I started attending church again on my own which is really the first time in my life I'd done that otherwise it was like I was going with my parents but I I was figuring out what that looked like for me and then um and then I went to a conference in Irvine at the the what not there anymore the Irvine Amphitheater like 10,000 guys and it would the the whole thing was like how to live like a man in the last days and that intrigued me because I was in this space in this industry where I'm like I don't who's I don't have any role models my role models suck you know for lack of a better word just right and I was just looking at the world and so that was at that conference they did an altar call and I'm like I'm I'm responding to this so that was like I gave my life to Christ I'm applying for you know to be a pilot. So all this stuff is happening this is in a span of like five or six months and then I'm like I'm leaving LA moving back in with my parents they moved from Orange County down to um San Diego County and in that time my career changed I started getting into the marketing side of things I didn't know what I was going to do because once you sign those papers for the boards uh they could still pull you in reassign you to a different position or whatever.

Gary Wise 29:35

I just it felt like the military was no longer the thing I'm like God what's going on here I got a call one day right after I started this other job and she's like yeah they did budget cutbacks they're canceling the boards you have to reapply like cool bye just yeah not meant to be

Returning To Faith And Seeking Mentors

Gary Wise 29:50

not meant to be so anyways that that's kind of a bit of my journey in that transition very going back to that uh all those men in that amphitheater come going to figure out what they believe it takes to be a man leading in the last days or or whatever their idea was what were you looking for in a role model at that time that you felt like you weren't finding day for day do you ever do can you uh give me that description of what you were looking for in that man it's a great question um well I so to to back up a sec and this is no knock on my dad he just my dad uh grew up tumultuous life saw everyone around him getting divorced and was like I'm never getting married well he got married at 39 which back you know 50 years ago was really weird um it's very common today so I had this thing in my head of like oh I'm just gonna be a bachelor for the first half of my life that seemed really appealing and then I started to change that where I'm like what what am I doing?

Preston Zeller 30:56

I'm just like kind of living really selfishly and I didn't I didn't really know how to not live selfishly. I felt like that's all I'd been doing. And so I'm like who who has a family and a career and kids and like the a good perspective on life where they're not letting life run them and also has a strong faith in the process like where is that and I you know I I started to seek that and find a bit of that in church although everyone was younger I wanted someone kind of older so um so I I I'd say some of those things it's just like and and that I think with a biblical foundation really for me because that that's the thing I started looking at um I think the subjectivity the moral subjectivity in the world and was like there's no you know it's just kind of whatever you want to do within some vague parameters.

Gary Wise 31:58

Right.

Preston Zeller 31:59

And and that just the the creative part of me likes that but the engineering side is like that doesn't make any sense then you know we're all just kind of doing whatever we want to do like what what's the end result there? So anyways um I think those are some of the things but also the last thing I'll I'll say in that regard is just you know part of the thing about anxiety right is it's it's an uncertainty and a in a trying to control things that you have no control over. And I I think that's that's rampant today but it you know for for me back then too there was some amount of that where it was like if all these things you know you'd like concoct this scheme in your head of if these things just go right then I'll get what I want and you're like they're not none of those things are going to go right and you know my reaction to those is the only thing I can control and uh I I didn't have that like steadfastness you know I could I could push through things and by sheer willpower but that still doesn't mean you're gonna get what you want unless you just want to become that kind of like monster in life that sort of you know ends up being the mob boss or whatever.

Gary Wise 33:19

But yeah I think steadfastness is a great word right I think consistency steadfastness one of my word for the year is perseverance um I also believe that while we have a God that will love us and accept us and be willing to let allow us to always return it does not mean he likes us doing whatever the hell we think we want to do right and and I say that literally because unfortunately we live in we live in a space where the devil wants us to believe that we can do whatever we want and it's okay. Right and and while I I like to meet people where they're at I'm I'm good with that right I like to meet people where they're at but if you ask me do I believe it's right or wrong I'm gonna tell you if I think it's right or wrong. You know I remember I I was at a uh a selection board one time which is where uh a group of us will go to Tennessee and we'll get put into a room and we'll determine who's gonna make promotion out of a certain part of the Navy right and it's a very important job and I took it very seriously and I met this gentleman there and we have this tradition where we we exchange coins right they're like little tokens or trinkets you know we have coins and this guy gives me his coin and his coin is like double the width of an average coin and I'm just like brother this can't go in any of my coin holders right like you just jacked up the whole collection dude and he was like I know it's on purpose look at this and he puts it down on the desk and it's standing on its own he's like now this coin is different than every other coin out there because I want you to understand that this coin is mine. Read what it says on the side and it says you know if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. He's like that he's and I remember that moment very pivotally and I've heard that saying before yeah right but I appreciate that that was his message to the people he was because every coin he gave out he would tell them that story right interesting and for and for me and that hit me on so many layers hit me as a professional Navy man hit me as a as a leader hit me as a dad hit me as a Christian like all these different layers that I took that in because of that momentary and all I saw was you gave me a unique coin that's not going to fit in my box of how I want it to go right and and I think for me and it's not just a men thing even though I do think I'm a dad of boys I have two sons and I think it's very important that they understand their role in the world and in society and in their homes and to be proud of that. And while you can be accepting and welcoming and gracious and all these things you also need to stand for things otherwise you'll fall for anything right and and so when I heard you talk about looking for mentorship role model and I appreciated you filling in the gap on your dad right because I think for me I love my dad to death don't get me wrong but there are some things in my life that he just couldn't fill for me because there were areas his life that I did not want to emulate you know I love my dad but I remember I told my dad one time I said you know dad I've seen every mistake you've you've made and the one thing I'm gonna try to do is not do any of those mistakes again. I don't know if that's the right thing to say to somebody but if my son ever says that to me I'm gonna be like well okay bro I'm glad you paid attention right like let's get it go make some new ones screw it up let's get to work right and so because there's no there's no all the way right way or wrong way to do this thing right it's just get out there and try.

Preston Zeller 37:13

So here you are going through this renaissance of reconnecting with your faith or figuring out what faith looks like for you in a whole new dimension because now you're an adult you're you're not you're not leaning on your parents' faith so much you're finding your own now you're in this marketing space and when you say marketing does that mean getting involved with technology now and in that space where you're starting to figure out how to be a corporate professional um yes and no uh marketing technology yes corporate uh you know I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't quite entered like the corporate sphere so you know my my background uh well from a pedigree perspective you know pedigree formally and also work experience I was coming out of a space where I went to film school and that's what it would say is a degree which I don't think after your first job I don't think people really uh cared too much and then my you know kind of string of jobs in LA were like working in a space that people don't understand outside of film there it was like you know working at a talent agency what the heck is that you know but you were advocating for people there right uh that's what I heard I thought you were advocating for people I uh no no that's what the agents do it takes okay got it a long time to become an agent okay got it if you actually want a stomach aid I was assisting them okay uh which means mostly handing all their emails and sending scripts and doing other kind of menial BS work. But were you getting the chance to see how they were doing it and were they doing it treating people right or wrong yeah yeah so you get exposure to that you get exposure to I mean there don't there's a ton observationally that you can learn and about how certain types of people in the world function like maybe archetypes that you don't want to be around because you're like that's bad news um but uh yeah and you know just odd things that you pick up on because um yeah how they would court people for certain types of roles and what they would negotiate and there's things you pick up on it's just right it's just not a place where you go man I want to do this long term it's a it's an it's an infamous industry for churning people out like 99% of the people that I worked in that space with they're doing other things now they did not stick around some of some of them stuck around would be you know going to some studio or you know studios are like the corporate version there but I I would never really had much of like a corporate job though I I I had uh I mean I will say ICM was the most corporate I had to wear a suit and tie or at least a tie and you know slacks and all that and uh they wanted it that was the most professional angle of the film industry but um yeah otherwise I was just trying to figure out I I went back to my creative skill sets when I left and it was like okay well I need to make money now again and have a career change already you're outside of um what I thought was going to be my career and I leaned into design but here here's the interesting here's where I think God really kind of set me up here uh I I had my first job it was like part-time work at a place that wholesaled uh wireless accessories right cell phone cases all that kind of stuff they're like we just need some design work I'm like cool um they didn't have a computer for me and they finally bought me one but they they set me up in this gigantic room that they were supposed to expand into one day um they never did but I was upstairs by myself all day in this like industrial office space just cranking out design stuff and I was so efficient at it they're like we'll keep you

Learning Marketing Tech By Doing

Preston Zeller 41:20

around full time so that became my full-time job but what was interesting about it this is the late 2010 going into 2011 what was interesting about that is right in that space is where a lot of just like marketing technology started to come online that was just kind of changing the game for how you did digital marketing. And so uh you know we had a list of like you know 50 000 people or something and I was just I would I would read things online and go test them on a real world environment read them online test in a real world environment redid our website like did all these things just for an actual business but it wasn't like the highest of stakes because they were mostly sales driven and so I was like figuring out how to connect the dots of marketing and how that works with sales so I was just like every day I'd have conversations with these sales guys and be like what do you need what can I make for you online that's gonna like make your job easier that was all I did for like uh a little over a year and how far away from that time in your life were you from your brother starting to go through his changes because he's in the army at this point is that are we is that four or five years still down the road as you're going through this renaissance of fighting your faith you're doing your art thing you're making things better with these marketing people and learning about sales and marketing uh are you still single at that time as well no um I I met my wife while I was at that job so funny enough uh moved down to San Diego got that job in January of that year in 2011 right after I got it I I was I remember I called my sister in law I said I'm gonna meet my wife this year she's like she's like really how do you know that I'm like I don't know it's just a feeling you know it's like Holy Spirit talking to me but um yeah may I met her and then a year later we got married so very cool very cool uh so after that year in that position what led you to go to the next thing was it just a calling was it a better opportunity what what was your decision to move forward after that because it sounded like that was a pretty good space for you to be I think anytime I I this is part of like the double edge sort of I guess for for me how I am and I'm because I'm just constantly kind of learning things um I it's not hard for me to like start to outpace where I'm at and just feel like I'm getting held down and I and I can't Stand that feeling when I feel like I'm being held back by the environment. You know, so I will look for ways to change that. So, you know, if it's like my my house and my family, I may be like, we need to move homes, we need to move, you know, towns, like whatever. Maybe you should we need to build another room, whatever. Um, if it's a job, I'll be like, well, this is um, this feels like it's kind of ending its utility. Uh, which is which is why I think this is again this is kind of the entrepreneurial side of me, anyways. So yeah, that job and every other time after that has really been uh kind of a feeling like this is coming to an end. But um, yeah, so after that it was it was really I worked with my dad for a very short period and then ended up at a another weird kind of job in La Jolla.

Gary Wise 45:01

So Chula Hoy. I so La Jolla is funny. We I used to live in Chula Vista and we would call it Chula Hoya, you know, down there in southern San Diego, right? Just north of San Isidro.

Preston Zeller 45:16

Chula Vista is a whole nother world, yeah.

Gary Wise 45:18

Oh, I know, man. I loved it. We lived in San Diego for like seven years when I was at Naval Base San Diego, and um we are Miramar, yeah down there on 32nd Street, right through where the ships were at. Yeah, you're right.

Preston Zeller 45:31

You're like my I mean, you guys are supporting like Coronado Island and stuff too, probably, right?

Gary Wise 45:37

Oh, yeah, all over the place. We were we were all over there. I love San Diego, uh, loved the weather, loved the situation, hated the hated the high price of life, right? It was it was thank god for credit cards. It was, you know, we me and my wife have a joke that we had to go to overseas duty just to pay off our San Diego lifestyle, right? It was and and I was in San Diego 2003 until 2010. Uh huh. So I was there, I was my I lost my home during the bubble bursting and all that stuff, right? So I can relate to a lot of that stuff you were talking about, and definitely understood, you know, I get it. And I remember that time of it was a good there was a lot of good things about the 2000s until unfortunately we got 9-11 and then kind of went, but even then, America still was pretty amazing, even though we were fighting overseas. Um, but then at the end of the 2000s, going in 2010, it was uh it was a tough time, right? Uh financially for sure. Um I'm interested to hear what was your first entrepreneurial uh endeavor, right? Because I was curious to hear that journey, like where when you look back on it, was it you were tired of working for somebody else, so you decided to do something, or would it would it be uh filming your your your film? Was that your first entrepreneurial endeavor?

Preston Zeller 47:07

You know, I've had uh a lot. I mean, first first was probably uh a thing I had with my friend in uh high school. We started this thing, we called it fireside photography, which was a stupid name in retrospect. But basically we go we'd go take uh photos at um at like kids' sporting events, and then we'd hand out cards to the parents and they could go buy prints. So, which now they'd probably be like, What are you doing? But you know, we were we were in high school, so that was the first thing we did. Um, he was more of the brains behind that for sure. And then um I think after that, you know, music was like that's you know, I don't know if you consider there's an entrepreneurial spirit there. That's actually really where where I got more of my knack for marketing was was that you know, you have to learn how to, you know, how do you position your music? How do you get booked at venues? How do you um you know do all that kind of stuff? You make an EP, where is that gonna get out to? What's the you know, uh artwork look like, just all these things. Um start promoting yourself online. That's that was where I started really getting into that, but then I got obsessed with like, ah, this new way to distribute yourself, not just hand out CDs in a parking lot or something like that. Um, and then right after I got married, um, so it's funny, I had this uh I had this uh tattoo on my forearm that's a it's a certain like depiction of the cross, but I was like, you know, I I had people ask me about it all the time, and I found myself constantly like sharing just the message of the cross with people, like unintentionally. This it was like a reminder to myself, right? But um, so I put it on a it looks it's I mean it's a tattoo, it's a cool design. So I put it on shirts and started a brand out of that, and uh sold some shirts and eventually just figured it wasn't worth the time, and yeah, so that that was another thing I did, did like print on demand early stuff there. Dude, I've done so many things, it's just silly. I've failed in some ways at most of them for sure, but you learn something every time. I think people get a uh I I don't know how younger generation is as much, but man, it it's it's sort of like you know, in the sales process, people go, Okay, I'm what if I get a no, I'm that much closer to a yes, right? I think in business there's that too. It's like one failure, I'm closer to another, I'm that much closer to a success. It's just like I'm playing an odds game, right?

Gary Wise 49:59

So, yeah, failing forward, man. Keep failing forward, and and I think one thing that's different for the younger for the today's generation was and even in even in ours, right? Uh, because even now we have access to all the information. You can go online, you can go on YouTube, and you can find access to so many stories of people failing and then eventually finding success. Whereas in the older days, you maybe you have to go read a book or seek out somebody that's in the space you want to find success in and go learn from them and their ideas, or you just muddle through it on your own and figure it out. And you know, I don't know if you've ever done this before, but think you're the first one to figure something out, then go online and find out that it's like been a known thing, and you're just like, Well, I thought I was an innovator and evan, but when whenever that happens for me or whatever happens for somebody else, I said, Well, congratulations! At least you know you're on the right track, bro. Like, and guess what? They paved a lot of information for you out there. If you so desire to continue going down that road, there's all you need to know in the internet, right? If you ever want to know, if you know if if you ever think you're the first person, just Google it and see what comes back.

Preston Zeller 51:10

Yeah, go go. I you know it's funny. Uh, this is a random quick sidebar, but I was I was uh I I hung like these decorative uh landscape lights on my fence in my backyard the wrong way, and it was like 240 feet of it or something, and so I didn't want to go take it off, and I started looking for a uh a male male end to male and electrical cord, and I'm like, these don't exist, and uh I've learned why it's called a suicide cord. Oh, yeah, if you plug it into one end, the other end uh is just gonna be like a freaking live weapon. That makes sense they wouldn't do it. But I said the thought went across my brain. I'm like, why isn't anyone making these? Maybe I should make these. Uh, it's a terrible idea. Never mind.

Gary Wise 52:03

Hey, you know, but there's gotta be people. I remember uh on that movie Armageddon, and Bruce Willis was like, This is NASA, this is the best we got. Like, you gotta have rooms, people somewhere just thinking stuff up, right? It's just the level of connection that we have with the world where there is just get on X, get on, pick your pick your thing, throw a crazy fireball question out there and stand by for heavy rounds because people are gonna give you information, right? And so on the reverse, it can almost be too much information and you got to filter it out, and it's the noise, right? Back to what we talked about earlier of well, everybody else is out there finding success except for me. Why am I not able to find fulfillment? Why am I not able to find peace,

Information Diet, Anxiety, And Focus

Gary Wise 52:50

find happiness, find joy, all these things that it is, you know, some Frankel what is the meaning of life type stuff, right? And and just trying to quiet all that noise down. And I think of the podcast that you actually first contacted me after was when I was talking about the color codes of stress levels, right? And are you green? Are you yellow? And are you are you orange, right? Are you living constantly? You brought up anxiety, and people are just always worried about the future and what's gonna happen next and what's gonna change. And I think all of this information that we're always giving, and even to our kids, all is contributing to possibly our brains trying to process it all and keep up, right? Um and and if you compound all that information, plus being an entrepreneur, it might lead to some sleepless nights, right? Because you're trying to figure out what what you're getting called into, you know.

Preston Zeller 53:49

Yeah, and I I I actually for that reason, I um I just I don't spend much time on social media, hardly news. I like read some headlines, that's kind of it. Um, because it just so you have you you probably heard the term OODA loop, right? I know it well, yeah. So yeah, so I I I learned about that like five years ago, and which is funny because it does line up well with the scripture that says, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Um, and but you're like, okay, most people don't realize that they're you're just if you're can whatever you take in, you're just that's gonna go into the input system of uh how you make decisions. So if you're taking in a bunch of you know really crappy information, that's your reference point for how you do life. So and that's just it's so easy to do. And I don't I don't think people realize what kind of a system they get into. Um especially if you're junkie on news, you're junkie on social media, right? You're junkie on like anything negative. Uh, you just you start to get so jaded at the world versus you know, I have people I'm surrounded with that are gonna build me up, or hey, we can share opportunities amongst each other. Hey, what are you doing today? Yeah, there's so much in that, and a lot of people have said that in different eloquent ways, you're the average of the you know, whatever seven people you spend the most time around, but uh that gets discounted and also maybe overindexed to some degree where it can be like, Wow, you're kind of too stupid for me to consort with.

Gary Wise 55:39

So, you know, you know what's funny is I was thinking about an updated version of you are the average of the seven apps you spend the most time in, right? Take that one to the bank, right? Like, sounds like a book title, brother. And the other thing is, I think it's just toxic, man. It has just gotten to be when I first retired from the military. Unfortunately, the higher I got into the service, the more disenfranchised I became as I saw behind the curtain more and more and more and more, right? And I remember when I retired from the Navy, I took dang near two years where I watched no news, period. Like I oh, I only watched local news from my own town, right? Like I wanted to know what was going on in my local area, but I was not watching any cable news, I wasn't looking at any, I didn't care about China, I didn't care about Russia. I'd been living it, you know, for quite a few years, and I'd been watching the things change, and I was just beyond frustrated, and I just had to let it all go because I wasn't gonna get do anything about it. Matter of fact, I was taking my ball and going home. I was leaving, right? I'm going to Ocala and teach high school, and that I need to focus, and then I learned how toxic those areas can be. And and you have to just, you know, and another thing is music, right? You know, I uh yeah, music matters, right? And the level the the the in the spirit you will invite into the space when you depending upon what you're listening, and I listen to a lot, but I try to listen to praise music as much as possible because I just that's the spirit I want to have around. Now, no matter how I love music, I listen to everything still, but I will tell you it's become a conscious decision. Uh, since I've retired, you know, I will put it on a praise channel, I will, you know, elevation or something like that because it sounds good and it's got good it, it's got good energy, and and also and it connects me with even the younger generation because the kids hear it too, right? So they they can relate. And I think that a lot of people just have got to realize as they're I mean, I I love social media to stay in connection with like family and friends, and I work with it, right? I use it to work, but be cautious because screen time can affect an adult just as much as it can affect a kid, right? It can, it's just part of the it's part of, and then what's the example you're setting for your kid if you're telling them they can't do something, but you're glued to it, unfortunately, way too much, right? And so if my son, one of my things I get home, if my son says, Hey, you want to go out back and do something, I'm almost always

Parenting, Presence, And Screen Time

Gary Wise 58:30

gonna say yes, even though I'm exhausted, I'm dog tired, whatever it is, like 30 minutes to an hour in the backyard, we're not on the phone, we're not watching YouTube or whatever. Let's go, bro. Let's go do that because someday you're gonna grow up and not be here anymore. I don't know. Do you have kids at this point in your life?

Preston Zeller 58:47

I do, yeah. They're nine, eleven, and twelve.

Gary Wise 58:50

Yeah, see, so I've got an 11-year-old and an 18-year-old, right? And it's uh my eight, it's interesting having an 18-year-old, right? And it's the first, it's the first glimpse into they're not always gonna be my like living in my house and being my kid, and so it's it almost gives that sense of urgency, like, all right, we need to do something today. Let's do something, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do something today, brother. I I do want to get into your video your movie you made, and I'm sorry for that because I we're having such a fun conversation, and I don't want to drudge up, you know, some of the some of the crappy things you had to go through in your life. And I have lost my younger sister died of a drug overdose. Um, and so unfortunately, I can relate, right? She was found by her daughter on the floor dead due to you know, with a needle and all that crap. And um, and then of course, I've lost parents, and so I I can relate, and I I was reading through some of your information about grief and how you were using the painting to kind of work through it, and then of course, hearing your filmmaking stuff, and I thought it was very powerful. So if you could share that story, that would be amazing.

Preston Zeller 59:59

Yeah, sure, and thanks for sharing about your sister. Um, yeah, definitely I didn't know that. Uh, you know, and I would say it's a wild thing because people are um people are experiencing grief all the time for many different things. Uh death is you know, one of those. And I think a

Losing A Brother To Overdose

Preston Zeller 1:00:20

then they're all gonna be unique, you know. For me, it was, you know, my brother was 35 when he passed away, and it was uh sudden drug overdose, and uh, you know, he'd been you know using for quite a long time, mostly pharmaceutical stuff, which but you know, pharmaceutical stuff is like legalized street stuff, basically. And and so you know, he was big opio opioids and stuff like that, but um it just comes out of nowhere, and I was I I think the biggest thread there for me is that or one of the biggest threads is I was like living my life up to that point, you know, I had young kids, three young kids married, and I'm just in my career and establishing myself there and making good money and not really realizing what's driving me. And then my brother passes away, and you go, all right, well, everything's kind of upended now. And I just saw art, uh, because I'd been an artist my whole life. I saw art as an opportunity to work through it. I'm like, I don't know what's gonna come out of this, but um, something could. And I eventually that year, this is early 2019, um, kind of mid-2019, uh, through kind of a series of different uh things that occurred, an art show. I went on, you know, kind of a trip actually down here from Washington State. I write in my journal, I realized that I need to I want to do more like more iterative, rapid painting than what I'd been doing, which was larger canvases. So I wrote in a journal, paint every day for a year, and make a documentary about it. It's just two lines, and um, I had no idea how the second one was gonna happen. I just knew that I had kind of a vision for it. I'm like, this is possible. I'm gonna go through this my own process here. I I think I would watch this if somebody did it, so I'll make a documentary about it. But it really started out as just I want to one do this to explore my emotions and try to make sense of all the the complexity of emotions you experience through grief through an abstract um intuitive abstract process. And then the second one was I was kind of bucking the trend of social media to that conversation of artists kind of highly censoring their work, uh, which is maybe less of a thing today. But I'm like, I'm doing these study pieces that some of them inevitably are just gonna look stupid, at least to me. So I posted every single one online, and what I found is that people started really uh connecting with it across that whole year in ways that continued to surprise me. And so when it came to how we made the documentary, um we was able to take learnings from that. I can I can go on about this for a while, so let me know what direction you want to take it.

Gary Wise 1:03:30

I was just curious. So you've decided to make the documentary, you did the 360-day three or the whole year. Did you just film every day as you were painting? And is that how you did it? Did you just is that your first time you got to use that film training that you'd gotten in college and actually make a movie?

Preston Zeller 1:03:52

Uh no, I was I was doing film for I was doing freelance stuff, I was doing film either as like a primary or secondary or tertiary thing at companies I was at, so I was still involved in the film process. I mean, that was a skill that just kept coming back in many ways. Okay. Um I but I wasn't filming this stuff, it was that was the thing. I was I was the subject of it, of course, but then really kind of producing it and you know, other roles as well, directing it. But I'm like, I'm I don't want to do this on my own, this is ridiculous. Well, uh, funny how God works in this. So this was like late 2019. Um, I moved down to Austin or Leander, Texas, and uh, you know, all the crap in 2020 starts to happen, so it's like, well, cool, I don't have a network down here. Um, I didn't want to try to abide by some crazy union guidelines and have everyone get PCR tests every day and all that stupid stuff that was going on there, right? And my next door neighbor uh happened to have some like a startup production company, and

Painting Daily And Filming The Process

Preston Zeller 1:05:10

and we all became friends, and so over the course of this thing, he was like, I love this story. I'm gonna assemble a crew and we're gonna shoot this thing. It's just so so wild. That's awesome.

Gary Wise 1:05:24

He saw the vision, man.

Preston Zeller 1:05:25

Yeah, his name's Sid Condolucci, awesome guy. Um, still um yeah, keep in touch to this day. But I I mean, I I think the the thing is too in that documentary. So it's called The Art of Grieving. If um if you're if you've gotten this far in, I didn't want to make it exclusively about me. Um, I also wanted it to I wanted you to walk away from it with a sense of empowerment that you could do something about your grief. So that was the thing I realized is that um not that I have grief figured out, uh that's not the point. Point is like I think a lot of people get stuck in the low parts of grief and don't feel like there's a way out, and then it starts to drive you into really, really bad things, you know, or just you're stuck in a depressive state. Um, you know, there could be substance abuse, you go into some some other addiction that isn't good or relational issues. It the cost of it is high, unresolved aspects of grief. And and so I'm like, if I can just expose people to the creative process, then great. And there's other things in there too, like history, and there's a uh, you know, actual clinical art therapist in it who talks about the broader aspects of grief. But it's been so interesting to see how people have responded to it. But one of them being people going, I never thought about painting, and that was just like something you know, for for like most things go, you think it's all uh normal because you know it, but that's not the case for other people.

Gary Wise 1:07:03

No, that's and the average person, I mean, me personally, I never uh would even think about painting, right? But I could see the journey, right? And how much better would you be at something if you did it every day for a year, right? Especially if you were trying to say, and during this time that I'm going to try to commit myself to do this thing, I'm also going to allow myself to grieve and to put I mean, because when I go through my grief, it's like almost like I'm in the ocean and there's just waves coming in, right? And you just I'd have to whether it was my my parents and my my parents, even worse than my sister. Man, I love my sister, but it was just there was, I think I've never really even fully grieved that one yet, to be honest with you, just because there's a lot of feelings there. But for my parents, that was it was that was tough loss, right? My mom died, just talked to her on Sunday, and she was dead on Wednesday, right? It was just out of nowhere. And and then for my dad, it was different because I got the chance to be with him and to sit with him as he passed away. And there's, but it just it's just waves, right? And you just gotta learn how to ride the waves and figure it out. So I could see when I was reading through your information and and looking into that movie, I could see the therapeutic value of somebody committing to doing this thing, and then learning more about you, of course, and hearing about your artistic side. And I'm I'm curious to know what'd you do with all the paintings, right? Because that's quite a collection of paintings, that's quite a collection of artwork.

Preston Zeller 1:08:40

Yeah, it the um, so the it's the the movie's about 70 minutes right now, uh 70 minutes. So, um, which is uh good, it's a you know on the shorter side of feature length, but it's still a feature length. Um the you'll watch it and it'll feel done to me. It's not. Um because where the original vision for that film was to do a public exhibition, and then that there would be like a reveal and a public, you know, a public reveal and all this stuff, right? Because there's there's also uh the 4500 lights that are behind it, and so that plays to music and it backlights the paintings in a whole different way, and you see some of that in the documentary. So it's a it's an experience, right? Um so I still have them. The um the goal at this point is still to do a public exhibit, which I think would be even more impactful now that it's been out for a while and it's been seen uh by a lot more people. And that would be the last like 20 to 30 minutes of the documentary, the process of that, and so where it ends now. So as you watch it, you'll be like, I just it ends and it has an ending, right? Fine, it'll go five years later, and it'll go to go to this process of but um so so I of course I still have them uh for that reason. Um, who knows where it'll go, you know.

Gary Wise 1:10:13

That's a good idea. That's a good idea, bro.

Preston Zeller 1:10:16

But you know, the one thing I'll say there, um, is I you know, I had in my house, and we'd have people come visit, of course, and they would see it, but I would have like help people, you know, whatever contractors kind of come in the house, and it would always be it would stop people in their tracks, it was so normal to us. And then there's this crazy uh 10 foot by 20 foot mosaic just like in my house, and we could go, What is this? Yeah, um, and it was before the film was out, like, can I take a picture of it? I'm like, don't post it on social media, yeah. But uh, but yeah, it would it started all these really amazing conversations with people. Some some people I knew, some people I didn't. So I got this like this this validation of in person what it could do, but it

Why The Art Of Grieving Helps

Preston Zeller 1:11:10

was like stuck in my home. So that's kind of you know, that unfolds a bit in the documentary. Um, but again, you know, it's really to help people um kind of realize hey, a creative process is not out of reach, and and also like, hey, this you can grow, you can not just get through this, but you can grow through it too.

Gary Wise 1:11:37

So the other thing that I want to touch on is the app you're developing. Is it an app or is it an AI?

Preston Zeller 1:11:45

Uh so it's a desktop and mobile app, uh works across the board. Uh, but yeah, there is AI technology going on in the background, yeah.

Building Psalm Log With AI

Gary Wise 1:11:55

And when it comes to the AI thing, because I mean, AI is I mean, the president's talking about it, he's got like an AI task force set up, they're gonna be building all the AI infrastructure. So the reality is it's not going anywhere, nor should I think we should we should want it to go somewhere because it's just change, right? It's it's what we have available to us. What was your intent beside behind trying to enter into that space?

Preston Zeller 1:12:25

Yeah, I so part of even going back to or like I I guess before I even really got into marketing, it was like how do I I'm I want to push the envelope of what's possible with within my you know capability, and and so I I was really trying, I was when I came up with that idea, I was a chief growth officer at a real estate technology company, and so I was leading these teams and and trying to figure out okay, how are we going to incorporate AI in a meaningful way? So I'm getting into that deeper and and and uh one of the things that happened was um I actually had a failed acquisition of a company that I was going to buy, but in the process learned a lot about these different AI concepts. So it kind of opened the doors to me mentally on hey, what's possible here? And I had uh heard I was listening to a podcast, and one of the guys on it, young dude crushing it in the mobile app world, said, you know, AI for journaling is kind of an untapped market. There's a lot of them out there now, but but that really intrigued me because my connection to everything I've done creatively is basically journaling, but it's create it's creative journaling, and I've done writing journaling too. But the creative process is journaling. But what you're doing basically, and what I did throughout my my documentary is you're chronicling where you're at, and then you're looking back on it to go, how did I change? And I didn't want to do broad scope journaling. I looked at like the problem in the Christian world, which is people keep prayer journals, reflective journals. They never go back and look at them, and I'm like, Wow, large language models are perfect use case for this to find patterns and how you talk about different subjects and you know the kinds of things that you need help on, or what's your sentiment towards family or your job or your relationship with God, all this kind of stuff, and then how does scripture play into that? So I basically set out to kind of like solve that. Um, and that's what Psalm Log is now. It's not some a journaling app so much as it is a 24-7 biblical life coach, because you can um put in basically this kind of describe what you're going through, and you know, uh it'll take scripture into account and a lot of other stuff on the background to then give you like structured feedback, kind of like a you know counselor might, but yeah, very cool.

Gary Wise 1:15:00

Well, what has that journey been like though? That's a whole new is that is that a new space for you to be in and trying to figure out how to market it, how to how to bring it, how to design it, how to essentially all of the things that it takes to create an AI driven thing, right? Because it's not as simple as making an app, right?

Preston Zeller 1:15:21

No. Well, yeah, and that that's kind of the the interesting thing today is you know, yes, you can, you know, quote, make an app, right? Whatever, you know, um overnight, but that's you know, uh the the distribution and the are you making something meaningful? And does it actually you know hold up to uh does it what's the mode around it, all those kinds of things. And so I've had to continuously go back to it and do different rounds of testing, safety testing. Um, you know, is it like edge cases? Is it saying the right thing? Is it doing the right feedback? Um, but what is it like? Uh really challenging because I mean you're you're uh combining uh theology, religion with software in a way that is uh touching on sensitive points for people, you know, sensitive psychologically. So, you know, I I'm having to uh be as empathetic as I can in all this because I I gotta make sure it's gonna give the right um type of response if someone says you know they've gone through through some kind of abuse or they're trying to justify adultery, which it which it's not going to, but you know, all the different ways that people could could twist it. I so I have to like not think like them and like uh on you know, like a method actor, but think like that in terms of what are the ways someone's gonna try to like mess with it and and how and how's he gonna respond to actually then go well, you know, give them the right direction. So it's just it's hard. It's it's not like uh it's if I wanted to pick an easy, benign problem to solve, this would not be it.

Gary Wise 1:17:18

Is it already live out there on the marketplace now?

Preston Zeller 1:17:21

Yeah, you can go you can go try it out today for free.

Gary Wise 1:17:24

Go check it out. So do you who are the people like who are the people you hope uses it the most? Do you hope it's just anybody that uses it to log their psalm log? Is it meant to be like a like you said, a journaling thing for every per individual user? Or did you mean it for like people that are preparing to minister? Or was there a particular was there a particular market you were hoping would best you want to come utilize that that your software for?

Preston Zeller 1:17:52

Uh yeah, so I I'll actually, if you want, I could show it to you right now and kind of describe what it does. Um but uh the reason I said it's not like journaling might be like part of the mechanism behind it, like what what you're functionally doing. Like when you when you go to the gym and you do strength training, um, you know, yeah, you're you might call it resist, you're you're actually doing resistance training when you lift weights, but you're gonna call it, you're gonna, you know, maybe you're you're doing hypertrophy or something like that. It's just how does how do you actually think about what the the it's the mechanism versus the problem you're solving? And so one of the things that happens when you come into the app is you actually get onboarded, and it's like your age range, where you're at spiritually, what are you looking to get out of the app? So those things start to help give more context in terms of how it's gonna reply to you. Um, but then you're you're picking um kind of different scenarios to help you start your journal. So it could be, you know, these are the common ones, facing a challenge, you want to give thanks, you're experiencing joy. Um, there's life situations like parenting, career and work, health challenges, those things all kind of like help personalize it more deeper for you.

Gary Wise 1:19:12

Wow.

Preston Zeller 1:19:13

So to answer your question, though, in many ways, it's like it's less about the age range. Um at the moment, I think kind of mid to more experienced, uh, or more, you know, I guess mature believers would probably be the best way to put it, are going to use it. But um it you could use it if you're kind of like seeking too.

Gary Wise 1:19:40

So I just I just checked it up and I like it. I'm gonna check it out.

Preston Zeller 1:19:44

But uh I I think of it more as like if you wanna if you want to help understand yourself better from a spiritual um uh a spiritual point of view, like that it's for you.

Gary Wise 1:19:58

Well, and I leverage AI, I'm not gonna lie. I I've got a few different variants that I play with, right? So I'm I'm interested. Uh, and so I appreciate the opportunity to not only share that with the listeners, but to share it with the world because I think it's an opportunity. Uh I've gone to AI before and asked scripture questions, right? I have, I've gone to Gemini, I've gone to Grok and said, hey, what about this? And and so I've never thought about somebody generating one just for that. So when I first saw that, uh, as we were connected and preparing, I was like, okay, I want to make sure we talk about this because I want to know more about it, but I wasn't sure where you were at in the generation phase. And I I'm happy that it's out there. Hopefully, it's meeting your expectations too, man. Hopefully, so do you have to manage that AI now, like that whole is it? It's not a website, is it too? Or is it just how do you do that?

Preston Zeller 1:20:51

Well, uh, so yeah, I mean you log in in your browser, and is that what you mean?

Gary Wise 1:20:57

Or any, I mean, is having an AI website the same as having a website, though?

Preston Zeller 1:21:02

It's not right, you gotta have like hard drives somewhere, and no, so like um it depends on what you mean by AI, but like uh I'm using foundation models, which a foundation model would be more something like what Claude or um or Anthropic puts out or Gemini or something like that. So I'm building off those, and then there's a bunch of other mechanisms going on in the background to make sure that basically it gives you the right information. So it's all cloud services at the end of the day.

Gary Wise 1:21:39

But do you is that a one-man job, or do you have like a whole team of people doing Psalm log with you?

Preston Zeller 1:21:45

I had a team initially who helped me build the MVP, but um, what's interesting is cloud code has gotten so dang good that by the time I worked through like a lot of the initial concepts, I was able to start iterating with cloud code pretty quickly.

Gary Wise 1:22:04

Very cool. Hey man, that is what it's for, right? Like and kudos to you for having probably taught you you didn't go to college for AI, right?

Preston Zeller 1:22:13

No, and any college that gives you an AI course, don't believe them because changes every stinking day at this point.

Gary Wise 1:22:22

I mean, just out of my own curiosity, is is that what you're doing now for your primary like way to take care of yourself is doing Salmlock, or are you doing are you still working at J O B in the marketing space?

Preston Zeller 1:22:37

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, so actually, I went through the the sale of two companies last year, which is like basically helped me fund this, and so that's that's what I'm doing right now, full time. So very good. Um, that's awesome. But um, yeah, it it's it's uh so you built two companies, right?

Gary Wise 1:22:59

It's what I'm gathering from that. Somewhere along the journey, you built two companies and then you sold them.

Preston Zeller 1:23:06

Yeah, I didn't I I didn't found them, just to be just to be clear. Um, other three other people founded them, but I came in to help them. I came in as a chief growth officer, basically, right? I helped them figure out the trajectory of the company over this over three and a half years, how we were going to navigate um getting to a point of being able to get acquired. So that's what I helped them do.

Gary Wise 1:23:31

Nice. Is that something that you would like to do with Psalm Log in the future? Would you like to someday be able to then have somebody else take that from you and then do something else, like build something else in the future? Because I've heard that before from other people that I work with. It's like they're really interesting in innovating ideas, building this thing, but then eventually handing it off to somebody who wants to take it to the next level so they can go back to the building stage again. Is that kind of like what you would like to see happen?

Preston Zeller 1:24:00

Yeah, I think people generally uh gravitate towards a certain phase of like the company growth um timeline, and ultimately, like there's uh you want a liquidity event out of something you build, so that's either you know you you get totally acquired, hopefully from like just some strategic strategic acquisition. Um you go public, uh, which is you know that I mean that's what going public is, is raining raising a gargantuan amount of money usually. Um, and then uh or or you take funding, but you take funding and you get like a partial, you know, liquidity event out of that. Um, and so you have like uh private equity. So that's not even like really in the purview right now. Um it's it's just like getting getting it to a stable, predictable place for me, and also making sure it's like it's hitting all the markers that people expect. So I think the journaling experience or like the sessions you do in there are pretty dang awesome at the moment. And now it's like the other things that I'm continuing to build onto

Testing, Safety, And Psalmcast Audio

Preston Zeller 1:25:20

it, like um Psalmcast is another feature we launched, which uh Salmcast turns those uh entries you get back into like audio clips for you. So you could actually do you could do say on the go, you did your journal entry and you could generate this psalm cast, go listen to it in your car or on a walk or something, like someone talking back to you.

Gary Wise 1:25:52

I think for me, the other thing is just when I think of for I started podcasting because somebody told me that uh thought leadership was pretty much being taken over by AI, right? So, like Gary, everything you're reading written on Facebook is being taken over by AI. I was like, okay, well, then I'll just start doing video because this is really me. And at some point, maybe I mean, I didn't I now know there's AIs out there that can take me and make me say things I didn't say, right? But for the most part, this is what I stand behind. And and then maybe someday my grandkids can find these videos and find value in it because when my dad died, uh going through his journals was a very emotional thing, right? What a gift, right? What a gift to posterity to have access to your to your thoughts, right? Or to your to your perspectives on things, and I don't write, I just don't, I don't, I don't have good penmanship. I'd rather type on a computer, and as a matter of fact, I I'm the guy that started using a microphone to talk to my AI before there was even AI chat, right? Like I was already doing that before that even happened because it was just easier for me to just run off at the mouth and then get back the answer, right? So I I thousand percent see the value for a lot of different flavors of of people, and I think it's very cool. And then uh as I know we're getting ready to wrap up here, but I I had asked you earlier about how was it when you first got into the corporate space, right? And you were like, I never really met corporate, but then you were a chief growth officer for two freaking organizations. Like, how did you become a chief growth officer, bro? Like, did you just did you work your way up the the the C suite executive food chain, or were you just the right guy for the right opportunity and you and they they just trusted in your and your skills?

Preston Zeller 1:27:50

It's a more uh more the latter. That was a good uh explanation. Well well, I I I had been uh you know the This so if anyone's listening to this early in their career, like and I know that you this is you know, I'm sure happened to you too, where it's like you develop a reputation one way or another. So people go other places and then they remember you, and they remember you as the guy they want to work with, or you know, the one they don't. Um, or they may be like this person's like unsavory but really good at their job, whatever. But um I you know, I I try to do my best in every single place I I went to, and um, I think I for the most part did a good job. And so when it came to that role, it was like the funny thing, the funny thing was I wasn't looking for that role. I was I was doing grief commission paintings. I thought I was I was I was actually thought I was like done with tech. And I got a text one day from a friend, he's like, Oh, this company could really use you. I'm like, I don't know, and then it just turned out to be, I think, the right decision, but it was hard. Um it it's it's sort of like you know, and I think people need to have more of an opinion too on where where are you trying to go? I think sometimes people they just want the system to like bring them up, right? Which you know, the military is a you know supposedly a really good meritocracy, right? But I'm sure you still even then you have to stand up for yourself to be like, I would like this, you know, here's where I see my career going, not just well, you get me, right?

Gary Wise 1:29:27

You know, thousand percent man. Close mouths don't get fed. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you've got to be able to advocate for yourself and get over this idea that it's you're just glazing yourself, right? That's not true. You've got to be able to advocate, but also recognizing time and place and hopefully putting yourself in a position that somebody wants to hear what you've got to say, right? But no, that I I was very curious about that, and I love that I love that that somebody thought of you and that it was a like you. I'm glad you look back on as being a good experience, but like you said, it was really hard, right? Um I I have also had people call me for jobs and taken them, and they were really hard, right? And sometimes I kick myself for it because I'm like, man, I was in a really good place, but I thought this was an honor to get the phone call, and I did it. And it was it was super, you know, hard, emotional, challenging, family, all the above. Uh, but then of course, you know, I tried faith and try to just figure out the way forward. So I can relate to a whole bunch of that stuff, and I'm I'm proud of you for getting through it. I'm glad you got a good sellout package on the backside where you could then focus on psalm log and have this exciting opportunity. Um, appreciate it, bro. We could we could probably talk all night, but we probably need to wrap this one up. Uh, one thing that I do for my listeners is I kind of do some rapid fire questions, right? So if you don't mind, I would like to run through those and we'll just go ahead and wrap this up. Sound good?

Preston Zeller 1:31:04

Let's do it.

Gary Wise 1:31:05

All right, my guy. So on the ship, on the weekends at sea, every Saturday night, the cooks are always making pizza and chicken wings, right? It's like it's a tradition on the ship underway. Which one would you rather have the pizza or the chicken wings?

Preston Zeller 1:31:20

I love them both, but pizza.

Gary Wise 1:31:22

Pizza, I like it. Okay, so on the ships, we have this area that we all sleep in. It's called the birthing, right? It's just all these racks, three high, and uh, it's a very important place. We want to keep it clean, right? And so every day we send people to go clean the birthing. Now, if some people like that job because it's quiet there, it's air conditioned there, and typically you're just when you're done, you can probably get a nap in and no one's really looking for you, right? The lights are out. On the on the reverse, we've got these these things called working parties where it's loud, there's a lot of music, a lot of banging around, and we're humping all the food on board the ship that we're all gonna eat. Uh, and I can typically tell what kind of a person somebody is when I offer them, hey, would you rather go to the working party or go clean the birthing?

Preston Zeller 1:32:10

Uh probably the working party.

Gary Wise 1:32:12

I accept that, right? And look, there's no wrong answer, right? Because I've done both, and there's no shame in the game, but it's always interesting to hear. And the working party is a lot more fun, right? Hey, we're gonna watch a movie tonight, or we're gonna would you rather watch a De Niro movie or a Pacino movie?

Preston Zeller 1:32:29

Uh probably Pacino.

Gary Wise 1:32:31

Okay, uh, you know, looking back at all the places you've worked so far throughout your life, uh, because you've you've had the opportunity to kind of move around and do a bunch of different things. Looking back, do you have a favorite position so far?

Preston Zeller 1:32:48

I think my last role was favorite in the sense that it got me to really pressure test this notion of like

Growth Leadership And Earning Trust

Preston Zeller 1:33:00

having an integrated career, so bringing the grief work back into being a leader and what that looks like to lead with empathy. It was the hardest role I also had. So it was like, you know, days of mic.

Gary Wise 1:33:15

Yeah, yeah, that's such a real answer. A coming through the service, I would go to I'd go to every retirement ceremony ceremony I could go to, and we always retire relatively young, right? We're all retiring like 45, 50, whatever it is. And I would always ask them, hey, what was your favorite tour? Every one of them, myself included, we always said our worst tour was our favorite tour because it was the most stressful, but it was like, but I did it, right? I did that, and like you were saying, how you were able to leverage all of your experience with grief, but then link it to empathy and work with people, like just and it's unfortunately that's probably gonna be a pivotal moment for the I mean, that's just what it is. So I that's a great answer, bro. All right, um, and and it's hard to think about that when you're our age, like I'm retired and I'm always like, what am I? What's the next thing though? Right? Because I'm too young to like have peak, like I need more, and hence podcasting, right? Plus teaching high school. All right, looking back on your life, uh, what do you think was the most challenging like qualification you've ever achieved? What do you think it would be your education for your degree from college?

Preston Zeller 1:34:32

I mean, I guess that depends on what you consider a qualification, right?

Gary Wise 1:34:36

Well, yeah, whatever you whatever you consider. I mean, it could be AI designer, right?

Preston Zeller 1:34:42

Like, yeah, I I I mean the going through the process of selling the companies we did was was pretty tough, but I I think actually in many regards the documentary process was by far the most tough. Um so they all have their they're hard. It's it's just why is it difficult? So that was just a constant constant round of being wrapped in um you know grief, like really looking looking at it right in front of you, like quite literally, yeah.

Gary Wise 1:35:19

No, and then having to market it and share it and re and re yeah, that's a good one. So I saw on one of your social medias that you and your family spent some significant time overseas, right? Like, did I did I see that somewhere? Yeah, recently, yeah. We went well, we went to Italy, yeah. Okay, uh do you have a would you prefer to be overseas or would you prefer to be stateside?

Preston Zeller 1:35:46

Um, well, I think there's no place like the US, that's for sure.

Gary Wise 1:35:49

Okay, I accept that. So no, no, and and because a lot of us like I did most of my career is in Japan, right?

Preston Zeller 1:35:56

I've heard Japan's amazing.

Gary Wise 1:35:58

Oh, it's amazing, but the and we love it because it's like a small town because we're like on a base in Japan, so you can be in America all you want, and then when you feel like being in Japan, you go outside the gates, right? So it's literally the best of both worlds, right? And it is such a micro-like I remember just watching, I was in Guam for COVID. I was the base master chief for Naval Base Guam during the whole COVID thing. And while COVID was very, very strict on that little island in the South Pacific Sea that was a hub for this for the fleet, it was also the best place in the world to do COVID because I mean it was just it was just a beautiful place to be outside, right? And yeah, there you go. And you were on an island that was very connected, and so different cultures, different perspectives, yeah, lots of good things there. So I always ask them, would they rather do overseas or stateside? Um, okay, you're a film guy. Do you have a favorite movie or television series?

Preston Zeller 1:36:57

Uh a lot. Uh so on Japan, I think Tokyo Vice is awesome.

Gary Wise 1:37:06

Have you seen that? I have, yeah, yeah.

Preston Zeller 1:37:08

Are you laughing because you liked

Rapid Fire Questions And Principles

Preston Zeller 1:37:10

it or not?

Gary Wise 1:37:11

I'm laughing because I just it's off the wall. I didn't expect that one, but I but I appreciate it. It's an underrated series. I think it was well done. Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah, Tokyo Vice, got it. Uh okay, here's the next one. Would you rather be independent or on a team?

Preston Zeller 1:37:32

Oh man. Ultimately on a team. But I think I do some of my best work independently.

Gary Wise 1:37:42

Spoken like a true leader. That's just how it is, right? Leaders, hey, it's a low hey, I get it. Well said. Well said. All right, so do you have a personal leadership philosophy or a personal philosophy you subscribe to?

Preston Zeller 1:38:03

Yeah, I mean simply assume good intent.

Gary Wise 1:38:13

So assume good intent. You know, uh when when I hear that, I think immediately of the word faith, right? Like have faith, have trust, don't just always mistrust everything. Um assume good intent. I appreciate that.

Preston Zeller 1:38:29

Well, you'll know you'll notice in untrusting environments it's the opposite.

Gary Wise 1:38:34

Well, and you know, I've the up most of my world has been in untrusting environments because unfortunately, humans are just untrusting by uh nature, right? It's just just like they're complacent. It's just it's like our default setting. I'm gonna become complacent, and you must always fight against that complacency because unfortunately it could kill you, right? It's if you become complacent while driving a car, it could become a bad day real quick, right? Uh, I mean, and that's I'm a guy that used to go to sea on these big ships. I was at sea the whole summer of 2017 when we lost. We had the USS Fitzgerald lose sailors, the John S. McKay lost sailors, we lost Marines off the back of the USS uh Green Bay. We lost we lost an aircraft off the Ronald Reagan. And I was underway with my crew that whole same time in that same AO area, that same theater. And every day we were just like, it's not gonna be us. Hell or high water, treat every watch like it's your first freaking watch, bro. Treat every opportunity to drive that car like it's your first time to drive that car. And hopefully you can prevent mishaps because unfortunately, we we become complacent, right? And I I leverage that same thought process with them. I talked to the kids in my classroom about our relationships, right, with your boyfriend or your girlfriend or your spouse or whatever it is, our ourselves, right? Don't become complacent with your relationship with yourself, right? When you look in the mirror, are you happy with who you are? And it can, if not, what can you do about that, right? I think that that's an important piece of our uh philosophy. So I I like it. All right, next up, here we go. So in the Chiefs mess, we have some guiding principles. Uh, the first one is deck plate leadership, which is really just like leading by example. Uh, we have institutional and technical expertise, which is like understand everything about the organization you're a part of and how to do the thing, right? Know both. Uh, we have we have professionalism, which is and it's not just having like shiny shoes and a good haircut, it's like understanding like you're a professional, like take that, take that to the bank. Like, this is your your profession, is what we do, right? Um, there's character. I mean, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, right? Uh loyalty, and it's not just about loyalty to like uh it's loyalty to the institution, it's loyalty to to the leadership team, it's loyalty to yourself and your and your and your faith, all of those things, right? Uh there's active communication. So we need you to be a communicator, up, down, side to side, laterally, all of the above. You need to communicate and encourage communication, right? Don't don't stifle the communication, encourage the communication. And then our final uh principle is have a sense of heritage. You know, remember where we come from, remember the lessons that we've learned and share them with the future so they can gain from that wisdom. Um, out of those principles, does any one of those resonate to you more than the other ones?

Preston Zeller 1:41:46

Um, I mean, communication strikes me for sure because I think it's a hallmark of a good communicator or a good leader is being able to communicate well um clearly. So at least an impactful leader, like good, maybe uh debate.

Gary Wise 1:42:10

It's huge. One of my favorite sayings is that when when people stop talking is when you know you're failing, right?

Preston Zeller 1:42:17

Yeah, or they yeah, or they go, yeah, whatever you say.

Gary Wise 1:42:20

Right? Well, again, or you know, one of the things that when I was coming up in the ranks, it was like, you don't know, you know you're doing a good job when your name's written on the head on the bathroom wall, you know. Hey, screw master chief, he sucks. We hate that guy, you know. But then it's like I would read it and be like, I don't mean to suck though, bro. I'm trying, right? Like, I'm sorry you feel that way. I have feelings too. I'm human. Yeah, I'm human. All right. Uh, last one before we wrap it up. Would you rather lead or would you rather follow?

Preston Zeller 1:42:56

Uh follow Christ.

Gary Wise 1:43:03

That's it. That's it. You know, first dance, first time anyone's ever answered with that one, and it might be the best one yet. I I um because ultimately, if that's the lens you're trying to live your life through, you're gonna be okay.

Preston Zeller 1:43:16

Yeah, right.

Gary Wise 1:43:18

Uh, just like you were talking about communication, and I I love trying to communicate like Christ using stories, using you know the parables, using you know, an analogies that somebody can recognize the concept, but you don't always have to make it be about them directly, but tell them the story and they can they'll figure it out, right?

Where To Watch And Final Thanks

Gary Wise 1:43:40

Right. He was an amazing communicator, right? It just period. Um, Preston man, do you have any saved rounds or do you have any alibis or anything you would like to talk about before we wrap this up?

Preston Zeller 1:43:53

No, this has been good. Um, I would just really appreciate the time, Gary, and uh I'd just encourage people if they uh if they'd like to watch the movie, go to the Artofgrievingfilm.com. Um, and then psalm log, I'd encourage you to check that out too. I'd appreciate it.

Gary Wise 1:44:12

For sure. And theartofgrieving.com. You just recently revamped the website, so it looks has a whole new layout, and so that's gonna be exciting. I'll make sure that I post that up and share it with everybody. Thank you so much, brother, for your time, for your stories. Thank you for sharing your energy, and I'm looking forward to checking out some logs some more. And I appreciate you, man.

Preston Zeller 1:44:33

Cool, thanks, Gary.

Gary Wise 1:44:34

Yeah, man. I'll talk to you later. Have a great night. Stay blessed. Bye.