How Leaders Build Trust With Authentic Stories In The Age Of AI

Trust is getting harder to hold onto, and it’s not just because people disagree. In 2026, AI-generated content, deepfakes, and polished “thought leadership” have made a lot of listeners wonder: is any of this real, and who is actually behind the message? I sit down with Gabrielle Dolan, a global authority on authentic storytelling and the author of Story Intelligence: The Craft of Authentic Storytelling Made Smarter With AI, to unpack what leaders can do when credibility feels fragile.

We dig into why storytelling is not a soft skill or a performance trick, but a leadership communication tool that helps people understand the message, remember it after the meeting, and retell it without losing the meaning. Gabrielle breaks storytelling into four practical types you can choose from on purpose: personal stories, professional stories, public stories, and parables. You’ll also hear a powerful example from a risk leader who finally got her message across by using a simple childhood story as a metaphor for risk management.

Then we go straight at the AI question. Gabrielle shares how to use AI to brainstorm, refine, and speed up your work without losing your voice or outsourcing your judgment. Her “letter to AI” is a clean framework for accountability: AI can support, but it cannot drive. If you lead teams, teach, sell, present, or write online, this conversation will sharpen your authentic storytelling, workplace communication, and trust-building skills.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a leader who cares about credibility, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Communication Fails

Speaker 1 0:22

I believe, I believe we can run a slowly.

Gary Wise 0:28

All right, everyone. Hello, how you doing? Hop a day, Ohio. Good morning, good evening. All of those ways to say hello. Thank you so much for joining me once again. This is Words from the Wise. I continue to be the host of this podcast. My name is Gary Wise. You know what? Today we've got an exciting podcast. Got an exciting guest on the show. One of the things I've learned throughout my life that as I move forward, doesn't matter what position I've ever been in, your communication has got to be clear. If you're not able to clearly communicate, the mission is just, it's gonna fail. Doesn't matter how smart the plan is. If the team does not believe in the person delivering the message, it's probably gonna be complicated. You know, in 2026, we're facing even more challenges in the world, especially when it comes to figuring out AI and computer generated, uh, I would say data andor information. There's just there could be uh unfortunately a crisis of trust, and people always they they just want to verify that what they're getting is actually real. It's my guest today, man, she is a glob, she she's a global authority on this exact topic. She's coming onto the show from the land down under. Uh, and in fact, she's coming out of Melbourne, Australia. She argues that the only way to lead today is by utilizing a term uh called story intelligence, which is something she's bringing to the marketplace. She's worked with global giants such as Amagon, Amazon and Visa, and she's written eight books, including her brand new number one bestseller, Story Intelligence, the craft of authentic storytelling made smarter with AI. And so without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, let me uh welcome to the stage uh Miss Gabrielle Dol Dolan. How are you doing, Gabrielle?

Gabrielle Dolan 2:11

I'm doing well, Gary. Thank you. What an introduction. I loved your loved your introduction to the show and excited to be here and talk about all things storytelling.

Gary Wise 2:20

Let's go. You know, I you know what, thank you for that. I worked real hard with my AI to put together that introduction. You know, I'm not gonna lie. Well I love you.

Gabrielle Dolan 2:29

Well, I'm gonna say, and one of the things we'll discuss, I'm not a I I use AI, but it didn't sound like AI. So you've you've done it well, where you've probably used AI to help, but inserted your made sure you didn't lose your own voice, which is uh which is a key, important yeah, part of communication.

Gary Wise 2:47

Very much so. You know, one of my skills is, and I've you've probably learned this throughout your career as well, is I like to take the note cards, but then I will still essentially freestyle uh I'll I'll almost translate it again from what I wrote or what I planned based off of you know just our our brief conversation before I hit record, right? Kind of gave me a different sense of okay, this is kind of how this conversation is gonna go and the energy I wanted to bring to it.

Gabrielle Dolan 3:15

Um that's so true. Even when, like, you know, I'm on a physical stage and you, you know, you always have to provide your speakers intro, which I do, but the the brilliant introductions uh when I have the chance to speak to the person who's introducing me, and we have a conversation, and they they tailor it to make it like sound more real and conversational and authentic, and they're the best introductions. Facts.

Gary Wise 3:40

And then that's you know, that's my favorite part about doing this podcast journey is I get the chance to have uh conversations with people that are, you know, I get to see the reactions, I get to kind of see, you know, the head nodding or the like some of the some of the just some of the things that keep you going through conversation, and just the fact that we get to have this chance to speak with you being in Australia and me being in in Florida is is

AI And The New Trust Problem

Gary Wise 4:05

an amazing part about being alive in 2026.

Gabrielle Dolan 4:08

Yeah, right.

Gary Wise 4:10

Absolutely. The other part about this conversation that excites me is truth be told, the reason why I started podcasting was because somebody told me to stop making posts on social media because AI was taking away thought leadership, and really nobody believes that the posts are mine because I could be just leveraging AI, right? And that's what this person said. And I said, you know, I guess I get that. And I was already beginning to kind of play with the different AIs and figure out ways to have, you know, just I'd say smoother workflows. And I thought, you know what? I like talking a lot more than I like typing anyway, bro. So I'll just start a video podcast journey. And I yeah, you could probably take my face and now make it say whatever you want it to say with some computer program. But the reality is, anybody who cares to find out that this is really me, these are really my thoughts, and these are really my words. But there is a mistrust in the world and in the marketplace of people believing that leaders are not out there using their tools, their talents, and they're leveraging AI. And so then when I got your message and I kind of got your background, I was like, oh, she is right where she needs to be for the world today. Like, this is a per you, I mean, this is a prime location. I is how land in this in this market space to come after AI.

Gabrielle Dolan 5:38

Yeah, so so it's really interesting.

From Corporate Change To Storytelling

Gabrielle Dolan 5:40

So I I um I used to work in corporate Australia. I used to work in one of Australia's largest banks in you know senior leadership roles, and predominantly at the end in change management roles. So when you're, you know, when the organization's got this strategy or change they want to communicate, and we go out and talk to the business units. And that's that was the last couple of years of my role in corporate Australia, and that's when I started to realize that when I shared a story, people seem to get the message better and they seem to understand it. And so I started to think, I think there's something in this storytelling. I actually think it's a communication skill. I it's definitely a leadership skill and an influencing and sales skill, but but it's a skill. I kept coming back to this is a skill. And in previous roles, I had done a lot of design and delivering of leadership programs. So I I knew I could design and deliver training programs for leaders, and I just thought, I think, I think I'm gonna give this a go at storytelling. So that was 21 years ago, and and Gary, like everyone's talking about storytelling now, but it wasn't way back then. So um that's what I've been doing ever since. You know, I predominantly run training workshops, I do keynote speaking, and and I've written books, as you've said. I I wrote a book five years ago on storytelling, and uh it was my seventh book, and I really thought, you know, like I'm not gonna write another book on storytelling. There's only, you know, this one this, as you would know, as a thought leader and as a teacher, there's only so much you can write about new stuff. Um, but what started to happen a couple of years ago is that I would be in a workshop and people would ask me, will AI replace storytelling? And I was absolutely horrified by that question. It was like, no, like AI will never replace our storytelling. And then I got progressively people would ask me, can you use AI to help with your storytelling? And my initial reaction was like, no, that's that's not authentic, that's cheating. But it was um, it was my public, and I spoke with my publisher about this concept of a book around this, and she literally said, Well, if you're you're you're the expert, you should be leading this conversation. So I I did start to experiment. And so that the premise of the book, so you know, where I got to from here, the premise of the this book, Story Intelligence, is um in a world of AI-generated content, our stories are needed now more than ever. And I truly, truly believe that. But as we sort of alluded to right at the start, you can use AI, but you just got to use it wisely and don't let it take over and control your voice. So that's the premise of the book. And and also, as you mentioned in your intro, we are absolutely in a world of distrust. So all this, all this fake, you know, fake deep AI, fake. Um, I don't know if you follow the Edelman report, but they produce a global report on trust every 20 years. And last year's was trust is at its absolute lowest. Lowest in government, lowest in not-for-profit, lowest in employers for the first time. So when you think about it, we're in a world of distrust. No one knows what to believe. Is that AI? Is it not AI? Is it just fake? Um, that our authentic stories are needed now more than ever.

Gary Wise 9:01

You know, I I look at uh I'm a believer of Jesus Christ, and I look at his ability to lead by using parables and stories, right?

Speaker 1 9:10

Yeah.

Gary Wise 9:11

Uh I was a chief petty officer of the United States Navy, and one of the things they would always teach us would be to share with our junior sailors our the stories of our experiences, because it not only showed really that we were relatable relatable, but that we experienced similar challenges as to what they were going through. And I a thousand percent agree that if I can hear a person's opinion through a relatable story, or even just help me to better see what I'm going through from a third party or through a different perspective, the story is almost kinder than just don't do it that way, and I told you so.

Gabrielle Dolan 9:52

Yeah, right. And and and and it's not only kinder, it's more effective because I get it. So yeah, I love the fact that you often when people people sort of go, Oh, is storytelling a fad? And I often I often go to so Jesus and the Bible is a perfect example of that. You know, the the stories that are 2,000 years old of parables, and I I talk about the four different types of stories, and one is a parable, uh, has have delivered those messages over time. I also look to um Australia's First Nations people, the oldest um culture in the world, 60 plus thousand years, and their dream time stories, these messages have passed down not 2,000 years, tens of thousands of years, these messages have been passed down, and the message has not been lost because they're being passed down through a story. So the the yeah, often when we talk to our kids, we probably use stories. There's a saying, um, Gary, that they say um experience is the best teacher, but storytelling is the second best teacher. And and what you just described then, and what I no doubt what you do in your teaching role, is you're sharing stories to help them experience the lesson, but without having to go through the hardship of the lesson.

Gary Wise 11:09

No, the purpose that is correct. And I I I just agree with you so much. And I was thinking about older generations of humanity across different parts of the world that would use stories to continue to tell about history, right? And then whether it's one of the things I dive into is the the flood stories, right? And there's all these different flood stories all around the world of all these different cultures that all have similar storylines, and they're all just continuing to pass on knowledge and or information. And you know, there's a piece of it's gotta be a piece of it's gotta be faith, right? But there's there's almost always some truth to a story, right? It almost always started somewhere. And if you're a person who wants to be in the space of of hopefully leading or guiding or mentoring anyone else in this world, then being able to communicate your story or an applicable story is probably very powerful and probably one of the most important skills you can build in that space, right?

Gabrielle Dolan 12:07

Yeah, and and I agree, I think what I'm about is not necessarily sharing your story because I think a lot of people go, I don't have a story. I'm just you know, I'm just normal when but it's shit what you just said, it's sharing an applicable story. So if I've got to give a message or communicate something or coach or mentor someone or teach something, um, or I could just be giving a presentation and I need I want to give talk about innovation or integrity. What could I use a story to help with this? And and parables one story, and I

Four Story Types Leaders Can Use

Gabrielle Dolan 12:40

you know the the other stories I talk about are personal, professional, public, and parable. Um, and sometimes our personal stories are the most powerful.

Gary Wise 12:49

And I wanted to get into actually those four categories you had. So, what is the difference and how do you compartmentalize the different stories? And in your book, did you kind of provide in in this latest book you wrote? Is this where you really broke down those four types of stories? Or is this something you've been using for a while?

Gabrielle Dolan 13:07

No, no, no. I put it in this uh this book. So in several books I've written, um, you know, in previous books, I've I've got a book on storytelling for job interviews, and I've got the four types of stories here, but they're different stories because it's specifically for job interviews. And in my previous book, I spoke about it was like the five brand stories, but they're all about brand stories that you could use to communicate your brand. But this this lace book story intelligence, it's more general. It's it's like for it's it's not only for work, it's for personal stuff. Like there's a whole chapter on stories about if you've got to do a speech or a eulogy. And in fact, uh um my whole my dad's eulogy is in it because I I gave the eulogy and it's just story after story after story to communicate those. But the four the four types of stories I talk about in the book, um, and would it be helpful if I sort of went through them and broke them down?

Gary Wise 13:55

What for sure? Let's do it. Yeah, welcome to it.

Gabrielle Dolan 13:59

So they all start with P because I do, you know, I do like it when that happens. So it's um personal and professional. So these are your stories. These are stories that have happened to you. Personal as in, they weren't work work related. So they're nothing to do with work, and the professional stories are that they are work-related. So, you know, for example, if you if if you look at a job interview situation, for example, the vast majority of stories you're sharing in there are probably your professional stories, where they will go, tell me about a time when you, you know, faced a challenge or whatever. You could absolutely still use personal stories. So personal happen to you, not work-related, most powerful in a work message. That's and that's what I focus on in my workshops. Professional. And I I'll I'll explain them all and I'll give you, then I can provide a couple of examples if you like. Then the other stories are public stories. Now, these are like almost if you Googled them, if you sort of said, I'm looking, I uh I I I I can slightly remember this story about Steve Jobs and innovation. And if you Google it, you'll find the story. So they're in the public domain, everyone has them. A lot of a lot of case studies are public stories, like well-known case studies. Um, they can be effective. And um, I again I'm going back, you as teachers use them a lot to explain things like a case study. The they're they're good for that. The thing is, I don't get to know you anymore. So when you share your personal and professional stories, I get to know you a bit better. Um, public stories don't do that. And then the other story is the parable. And these are like initially I had fables, and I was going, oh my god, I wish I wish there was a P word that could describe fables. And I went, oh my god, parables. I was very happy that there was parables. And and these these these are you know things like the boy, the boy who cried wolf. Um and you know, you you spoke about before there's the stories in the Bible are often parables, where they're not they're not necessarily true, well, they're not, but they've they've come from some truth. So um, and so I talk I talk about those four. I give I provide examples of each one of those. Um I I might what I might do is I might give you an example of a personal story because that's the one that people struggle with the most. So parables they sort of get public, yeah. I get public stories, you just can find stories, um, professional stories, yep, they're your work stories. But like, what do you mean by personal stories, sharing personal stories in a work context? So let me give you an example, and then I'll and then I'll um and then we can talk about it. So I did some work with a risk team. So I was running a workshop for the entire risk team. They wanted to communicate more with more greater clarity with using stories. What the head of risk, her name was Rosemary. And Rosemary said, one of the biggest challenges I have is that when I talk about risk management to the business units I support, they just look at me and go, You're the risk manager, that's your job. And she said, It doesn't matter how many times I've told them I cannot manage your risk, all I can do is help you manage your risk. The the behavior

The Snake Story That Sticks

Gabrielle Dolan 17:10

doesn't change. The message doesn't get through. She she literally said, I've tried everything. I've provided example after example, case study after case study, and nothing's changed. She tried everything except the personal story. So this is the personal story that she shares to great effect now. I'm going to share the story, and then I want I want to ask you three questions, Gary, after you hear the story. The story goes When I was a kid, I grew up on a farm. And growing up on a farm, there was all these dangers we needed to be aware of. But Mum would teach us what to do. So we knew what to do when we came across um redback spiders in the timber heap. We knew what to do if we had a, you know, a potential traps in the dam after heavy rain. And we knew what to do if we ever came across a snake in summer. And I remember this really hot day. Mum was yelling me, get my bike from the front gate. So I ran down to get my bike and then I just froze. Because in front of my bike was this massive copperhead snake. But I remembered everything Mum taught us to do. So I played statues and I slowly walked backwards until there was enough space between me and the snake, and I ran back to the house to tell mum. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of the role we play in risk. All I can do is give you the skills, knowledge, and advice. So when you come across your own copperhead snake, regardless of what that looks like, you will know what to do. Now, can I ask you three questions about that story? Sure. Does that story help you understand the role of a risk manager better and the role you play in risk? I mean, you you probably know this message very clearly, but do you think the story will help you understand the message better?

Gary Wise 18:51

Yeah, I think it helps you to understand better that they're helping you to identify risk.

Gabrielle Dolan 18:55

Yes, right?

Gary Wise 18:56

Yeah, and that and that's ultimately you know, yes, yes.

Gabrielle Dolan 19:00

Yeah, so it's helping you when you see the risk, you know what to do. That's sort of the message. Not not I'm there to help you with the risk because I can't be there. The second question, and this I ask people, is do you think you'll remember the story? Definitely, yeah.

Gary Wise 19:15

You know, it's funny is as you were telling me the story, I was trying to correlate times of my life where my parents were telling me were telling me things to be careful of. Yeah, but that was the memory that I brought up. I was instantly relating to the story.

Gabrielle Dolan 19:28

Yeah, so the reason you remember it is a it's painting a picture, but you're thinking of your own stories. Like, you know, like people. I remember I first time I shared this in New Zealand. This woman said, Oh my god, I related to that story so much, and we don't even have snakes in New Zealand. Like New Zealand don't have snakes, New Zealand don't have any deadly animals. Um so you remember it. So so you are it helps you understand the message. So if you think about when you're communicating a message, it helps you understand the message, you're gonna remember it. And the third thing, if you had to retell that story, like if you had to retell that story now to your kids or your your students, could you retell it without losing the meaning? You wouldn't do it word for word, but could you just retell it without losing its meaning?

Gary Wise 20:15

Oh, definitely.

Gabrielle Dolan 20:16

Yeah, definitely. So when it comes to communication, now you probably wouldn't retell that story. You you would probably you've thought of your own story, so you'd share your own story. But when it comes to communicating, do people understand your message, like really understand it? Can they remember it? So when the meeting's over, when the presentation's finished, when the discussion is ended, can they actually remember it? And if they had to, could they retell it to others without losing its meaning? And a story will help you do that. The too often in business uh we rely on facts and figures and data, which is all necessary. I'm not saying it's not necessary, but it's not sticky and it doesn't help get the message across. So that's what a story does. It helps people understand your message, remember it, and therefore they can

Start Any Talk With Story

Gabrielle Dolan 21:05

retell it to others if they if they have to.

Gary Wise 21:09

All of that is very true. And I would say somewhere along the road, I'm not sure where I picked it up, but I was taught that whenever you start a public speaking opportunity, you almost always want to start with some sort of a of a story to kind of get people to be drawn in to what you're going to be talking about, or as to your to your authenticity or your experience or your ability to be considered an expert in whatever it is you're about to talk about, and they really want to pay attention.

Speaker 1 21:35

Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan 21:36

That's and that is and that is the best advice. It's I I'm I'm clearly I do storytelling training, but I also do presentation training. And I literally say the first thing out of your mouth is start with a story. And sometimes it's the personal story where it really gets people's attention. Like bang, you're getting attention. And Rosemary, in this situation, if she's got to give a presentation on risk management, the first thing she says is. When I was a kid, I grew up on a farm. Bang, tells a story. And then literally says, What I want to do today is help you identify all the copperhead snakes in your business. So it's sort of like now the copperhead snake's a bit of a metaphor for risk management that you'll weave through a conversation. But it is such a powerful, powerful way to start any presentation.

Gary Wise 22:22

Definitely. Well, and so here you are now you recognized, I mean, and you've been doing the storytelling intelligence piece

How Story Intelligence Got Named

Gary Wise 22:30

for a lot for you know eight books in. So you're an expert of that space. And I am curious to know when and where did you coin it as being SI or storytelling intelligence? And why did you decide to contrast that versus emotional or and the other one was more like what intellectual space? What was it that could because I believe that's a very strong bridge and it adds a different dynamic to those other two areas of intelligence. But if you if you can be trained and in teaching story or or or learning how to be an efficient storyteller and using it appropriately, you will be probably hard to keep up with in the leadership management communication space.

Gabrielle Dolan 23:13

Yeah, absolutely. We we spoke about Steve, I spoke and mentioned Steve Jobs before there's a quote from Steve Jobs. He said, The most powerful person in the world is the storyteller, um, because it has the ability to communicate and um you know it communicate with clarity. So so we've we've touched a little bit on AI. I'm gonna say, and I, you know, so I'm writing a book, Story Intelligence, the craft of authentic storytelling made smarter with AI. So I'm I'm thought I am going to use AI to as my creative partner in writing this book. I can tell you, Gary, of every book I've written, I've had a title in my head. It's never ended up being the title. So you have a bit of a working title because when you then go to your publisher, it's like, no, I don't like that title. I don't like I've even had the last book I wrote, my Australian publishing team loved the title. When they worked with their um US counterparts, the US, the US people said we can't use that title. It's it we won't. It was like, oh, because it it had you know different connotations. So the hardest bit of writing a book is coming up with the title and then the subtitle. So I used AI. So I I was having all these ideas about what it could be, you know, and then I asked AI to generate. This is the book I'm writing. Can you generate like I don't know, 50 ideas, for example? One of them was narrative intelligence. Now I don't I don't like the word narrative because I think people use the word narrative and story interchangeably and they're different. So to me, a narrat a narrative is like the overall arching message, and then lots of stories to sort of you know paint the picture of that narrative, I guess. So I didn't like narrative intelligence, but straight away I thought if I put story, I really like story intelligence, and and what I really liked that it's it's sort of like emotional intelligence, and I think and what I loved about that is I think the very good storytellers have high emotional intelligence, and just as you can develop your emotional intelligence, you can develop your story intelligence. So, so that's that's where that name came from. Um and then I did I did the same thing to try to come up with a title. I was getting AI to generate all these things. I there was none I loved, there was none my publisher loved. I I just kept going back to AI, going think of this, and I would ask other people and I'd do my own creative thinking. It was in the end, I went to a friend of mine who's a marketing brand expert, and I said, Can you help me with this? And she came back with about 20 ideas. And this one, the craft of authentic storytelling made smarter with II. Straight away, I loved it, and I sent them all to my publisher, and they came back and said, We did a bit of a poll in the office, and this is the one we loved, and so it we all agreed that it so it goes and I and I and I share that story in that amount of detail, is because I think it shows that you can use AI, you can change it like I did with narrat instead of narrative intelligence, I changed it to story intelligence, and then in some uh instances you can use AI, but the human that comes up with the idea is better. So, you know, treat treat AI as one of your team members, not not the smartest or the most important, just as you, you know, if you've got a team of 10, you would maybe ask them for their ideas, you know, add AI. So you've got a team 11, but don't don't default to AI because it sounds smarter or anything like that.

Gary Wise 27:01

You know, one of my funnest favorite parts, funnest favorite parts about AI is it's always available.

Gabrielle Dolan 27:08

Yes, yes, that's true.

Gary Wise 27:10

It's it's just a convenient team member, you know, and I was leveraging speaking into my microphone to the AI but long before they come up with the speak features and all those other things, because I was just sick of typing and I had a lot that I wanted to get out of my head. And ultimately, I was just kind of like what you were doing. I was working through a problem, and I was kind of just looking for something to throw back and forth with me, different ideas, and to find what's out there already in the world, and why reinvent the wheel if somebody's already done the work and I can just learn from their experience, learn from their story, if you will, and kind of get the information faster or more succinctly, right? Yeah, and then it just unlocked all kinds of different things, and it it can it can be uh uh it can be entertaining or it can be a very good tool when used wisely. And I like I like one of the things that you you spend you tend to speak about is you're responsible for the things you put in and what you give AI as far as what it's going to use to send back to you, but then ultimately you've got to be the one that says, Yes, I concur, this is gonna be my my message or my storyline or whatever it is.

Gabrielle Dolan 28:27

Yeah, it's it's about it's not losing your voice. And you even there's a few things I'm seeing now, even like uh the book was published um December last year, so it's only been out for about four or five months. But I'm seeing now, and if I could write a version two now, I'd add this to the book. We we don't want to get um when it comes to communication, we don't want efficiency over effectiveness because uh AI can help you be really efficient, but you it's still gotta be, you're still got to be in control of it. And you spoke earlier about your thought leadership. It's like don't get AI to write your thought leadership, it's like have your thoughts, actually do the do the thinking first, and then use AI to help you

A Letter To AI About Control

Gabrielle Dolan 29:10

maybe broaden it or deepen it or get or challenge you and stuff like that. Um, but you don't want to lose your voice, and I'm so strongly about that. And Gary, have you ever read um Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic? Have you ever read it?

Gary Wise 29:23

I I have not.

Gabrielle Dolan 29:24

Yeah, so it's it's a great book, and it's it's a book around, you know, she's a creative, and she talks about that whenever you go on a creative endeavor, that fear comes along for her. So fear's always there, and so she writes a letter to fear in cre in Big Magic. So it's almost like you can come along for the ride, but you're never going to be making the decisions. And I was inspired by that. So I actually wrote a letter to AI in the book. Do you want do you want me to read it? It's a pretty sure let's hear it. So this was inspired by Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic. I might just put on my glasses for that. It's I don't know it off by heart. So it goes, it goes like this Dearest AI, creativity and I are about to go on a road trip together, and I invite you to join us. I will be doing my job on this road trip, which is to work hard and stay focused. And creativity will be doing its job, which is to remain stimulating and inspiring. There is plenty of room in this vehicle for all of us. So make yourself at home. But understand this creativity and I are the only ones who will be making any decisions along the way. I recognize and respect the supporting and valuable role you can play. So I will at times ask for your advice and suggestions along the way. But understand that I was I will always make the final decision and I will always be in control. Don't take this personally, as I know you won't because you're not a person. But I know sometimes while you are eager, you hallucinate. So sometimes you are wrong. You also come with some built-in biases, so we are not always aligned. So you're allowed to have a seat, you're allowed to have a voice when asked. But my dear friend AI, you are absolutely forbidden to drive. I will always be in control. And I think if you approach AI with that mindset, you know, I always encourage people to write your own version of your letter to AI so you stay true to yourself in the process.

Gary Wise 31:29

Right. It almost sounded for me like a vision statement, right? Like this is going to be my true north through this experiment of leveraging this really cool, exciting new tool, new uh fascinating technology and this fun approach to the world, but I'm still going to not, like you said, I'm not gonna give up the driver's seat. I'm not going, you know, I'm not gonna stand in front of somebody and say, I'm sorry, I didn't read that thing that I hit you know, seed on, for which unfortunately has been something that I've dealt with throughout my entire life. I've plenty of people that I've worked with have taken somebody else's email, copy pasted it, flipped it forward, and didn't quite read through what they were sending to me as their response. Right. And that was, you know, an earlier version of what could have been some sort of AI or somebody else doing the work for you and you not properly reading that information, correlate, you know, coalescing it into your experience, into what you know, and then turning it into your response to the person you owe the information to.

Gabrielle Dolan 32:37

Right, absolutely. You know, just when you were talking then, Gary, we um Saturday night, I don't know what it was on TV, the old Anchor Man movie. Remember Anchor Man?

Gary Wise 32:47

Yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan 32:48

And when she was when she was trying to get back at him, someone said he reads everything on the teleprompter. Like if it's on the teleprompter, he read it. And remember, he, you know, signs off with you know, F U Ohio or whatever. Um and it just as you were saying that, that that it was like, you know, you're you can't go, he can't go. I didn't mean it because it was on the teleprompter. Like you can say, oh well, I didn't AI, I just asked AI. But if if it's coming out of your mouth or out of your keyboard, it's it's you. So you need to take control of that and and and not let and not just and and you know that's what I mean is being lazy about but back to efficiency over effectiveness. It might be really efficient, but is it effective? And if you're just if you're just taking, you know, like cutting and pasting and taking it, it's uh it's not it's it's dangerous, I think. What it

Accountability And The Cost Of Complacency

Gabrielle Dolan 33:40

also is, it's very dangerous.

Gary Wise 33:42

Yeah, well, you know, communication unfortunately has always been dangerous, right? And the way people can utilize uh on part of the information, right? And you maybe if you don't know the context or you don't understand what if you don't fully understand the message you're receiving, or if you don't understand, like we talked about earlier and risk, and can you recognize the risk because you've been trained? If you've never seen a snake before and you don't know what a snake is, well, then you may not have that reaction that you need to have that's gonna keep you safe from that snake. What if it's, you know, not a deadly snake, but you don't know the difference between the two? That might be something that you're not prepared for. Then I think about, you know, I'm a father, I have an 18-year-old son, I have an 11-year-old son, and they need to understand that ultimately the choices you make in life are your responsibility to be held accountable for it. I don't care who you did the thing with. Could they be in trouble with somebody else too? Sure, but they're not my kid, yeah. They're not my son, you are, and unfortunately, once trust is fractured, it's hard to back make get back, right? And there is a fear, and we you know, and I think I'm a little bit less resistant to the fear just because I've been leading large groups of people for so long that I'm used to being misled. Like I'm not surprised any longer when somebody brings me bad information, and that's why I always have to be the one that gets the the as good as possible information, and I don't mind saying I'm sorry if I didn't if I if I accidentally made a mistake, which I think is different than purposefully misleading somebody, absolutely right. Um, but but I I will tell you that unfortunately, not everybody tries to to do due diligence and figuring out the messaging or or what they're trying to find when it comes to all the information, and then it bite some, it can bite them in in the backside because it doesn't always flesh out. And when people think of AI, they think of this being readily available in the palms of people's hands, but then on the flip side of that, Google's been around for a while now. A search engine's been a while for now, it just doesn't communicate the same way. I I do think we as a society are also like programmed to think that the robots are gonna come take us over and they're gonna take over the world. And there is a, you know, I'm watching this TV series on Amazon Prime called The Expanse, right? And it's about outer space, futuristic, dystopian places where the Earth human beings have migrated to Mars and on the asteroids, and there is a lot of AI being used in in in those films. And so I think that a lot of people just have their own misconceptions or preconceived ideas as to where this road could be going.

Gabrielle Dolan 36:34

Yeah.

Gary Wise 36:35

Um, and I think there's a lot of fear there as well.

Gabrielle Dolan 36:38

Yeah. And I don't think anyone knows where where this will go. Um, but you know, when but yeah, when it comes down to using AI to help you generate content or with your stories, it's it's still got to come back to is this me? Is this, you know, would would I be would I take accountability and responsibility for this as it's coming out of my mouth? So yeah, I uh I a couple of weeks ago I was um filling out a form. And I yeah, sometimes I use AI just as my spell check, even because you know I'm not I'm not great at spelling, even though I've written eight books. Um, and I I put something in like um it's it sort of said in a nutshell, what do you do? And I said, I teach people how to communicate more authentic or authentically through stories. And there was a few uh bit of other stuff as well. And I put it into Chat GPT and it came back and it said, I teach people to communicate authentically through stories that bridge the gap between impact and trust. And my initial reaction was, I don't even know what that means, but but I could be thinking, Oh, that sounds really good, you know. So some people go, Oh, that sounds good, that sounds clever, but it doesn't sound like you, so don't use it. So, yeah, it's always coming back to does this sound like you? Um, and and if if it doesn't, then if it doesn't, you know what it sounds like? It sounds like AI. And so because it is AI.

Gary Wise 38:08

Well, you know, and not everybody, because I'll be honest, I wasn't, as you said those words, and especially that through impact and trust, I am over here trying to translate it and try to understand it because I get into this kind of conversation, right? Like I enjoy these kinds of mind thought-provoking, critical thinking. I teach high school kids every day, and I went from leading in a military organization to running. I mean, I was the Naval Base Guam Master Chief my last three years in the Navy through the whole COVID pandemic, right to a high school classroom, working with 14 to 18-year-old adolescents, and my communication skills have got to be considered top-notch on all areas, but it's not always gonna be critical thinking, it's not always gonna be thought-provoking. And so I like these kinds of this is one of my favorite parts about podcasting, to be honest. I get a chance to meet with people and have conversations that are not always focused around like grades and like who's dating who, and so-and-so doesn't like me anymore, whatever it is. So when I heard that, and I and it was about me punching through impact to trust, I was like, well, that that's a really important way to communicate how important storytelling is, because for me, it's about the impact is the result or the the effect of what you've been doing. But I know that without trust, there is not going to be any relationship between people.

Gabrielle Dolan 39:35

Yeah, absolutely. Not a real one. But but see, what you've done then is you've taken what AI gave to bridge the gap between impact and trust. And I'm going, I don't even want I I wouldn't be able to explain that. What what you've done and this is again, it's no, it's not right or wrong. You've gone, oh, that sounds that sounds really intriguing. What does that really mean to me? And you've reworded it in a way to say to communicate in a way that has impact and trust, because both are you know, so you've reworded, and that makes sense, but it again, so it's you're that's AI's prompted you to think deeper about that. Um, because you're right, it's to me about storytelling, it's about trust, giving you credibility, um, and about you know, communicating with impact, which is in a way people understand and and remember and actually get the message across. Oh Gary, can I ask you? Because you said this right in your intro, and I wanted to talk to you about this a little bit more, and it's based on this, because I often in my workshop say you can have the best strategy in the world. So you go into corporations and they spend months on coming up with this strategy, but if no one understands it and if they can can't communicate it properly, then what's the point? You can have the best strategy in the world. And I often say that if you're the one doing the communication, it's your responsibility that's understood, not their responsibility to get it. So it's it's your it's your responsibility that they actually understood it. And just telling them is not communication until they've understood it, then it's communication. And I've I've had people tell me that that comes from the military, that it's a military chain of command, that if if you're you're communicating a message, but if it's not, it has to be understood before you can say I've communicated.

Gary Wise 41:26

Is that is that true? So I would say yes, there's a responsibility for me to give you the training required for you to comprehend the message that I'm sending, right? And that's why we teach very fundamental things when we ex when we bring people, when we onboard people into the military. One of the most important things we teach them is our communication styles. And then I was I was a firefighter in the Navy for 16 years, and then I was a senior leader of over large organizations for the next, you know, nine years. And I will tell you that communication sounds great until you have a crisis, right? And then you add in pressure and you add in fear and you add in all kinds of extra gear that you're wearing over your face, and you can't properly communicate and breathe. And so then you have to rely upon your training uh for that to happen. And so I believe as a leader, especially a military leader, my number one thing was to teach my people so they could understand the communication that I'm gonna give to them, but they have a responsibility to listen.

Gabrielle Dolan 42:34

Yes, yes, definitely.

Gary Wise 42:36

Right? They need to turn their thinking caps on, and they have a responsibility. So I had I'll give you a story, right? Uh once upon a time at a land far, far away named Japan, I was on board an aircraft carrier, and for the United States Navy, our aircraft carriers are nuclear powered. And in the country of Japan, they have a lot of sensitivities around nuclear and nuclear engineering, if you will. And so and so do we as a service. So our areas that the Japanese local civilians would be able to go into, they would not be allowed into anywhere that had sensitive information, right? And every year before we went into a maintenance availability, we would conduct training on the whole crew, you know, 2,500 to 3,000 people on these rules of not compromising sensitive information or locations by putting Japanese local civilians in places that they should not be. Because theoretically, they're for the most part, the Japanese people are just there to do their job, and they don't have any nefarious uh ideas or goals. But what if somebody did, right? And so the way to prevent that from ever happening is by never letting somebody into certain areas and carefully managing the way we did that process. Every year we do it. So then I I get done with my three years on board this ship, and I'm the head guy for all the firefighters on board this aircraft carrier. And this is like 2013, so it's a long time ago. But I transferred to Virginia to be an instructor at another course. About six months later, I get a phone call or a message from one of my old people, and he says that he's in trouble. I said, Well, what you know, what what did you do? And he said, We let the Japanese people, the local civilians, into places they're not supposed to go. And I need for you to help me write a letter saying how great of a person I am, and that this was a mistake. And I said, Here's the deal. I'll write a letter saying that you're great, but you were all the way wrong if you didn't pay attention to the training that was given every year on this subject. And because really, what he wanted me to do is write a letter that said that he could have possibly not known to prevent that from happening. There's just no way I'm gonna do that because I'm not gonna compromise what I know to be true. Now, it could be true you're in a room with 300 people not paying attention and dozing off in the background, thinking this is another run-of-the-mill meeting. But guess what? That meeting they put out information that you can be held accountable to. Yeah, period. Period. Period. Right. And you took the paycheck, you took the responsibility, you took the rank, you wore it all. And oh, by the way, he's not a junior person, he's a senior person, which means you should be the one, you should know the rules so well that you should be given the training, my personal opinion. Yeah, and not calling me up as because when I was there, that would have never happened. But not every leader has the same level of intensity, the same level of resistance to complacency, right? Which are are just default factors that we as humans tend to fall into when we can become routine. And so I was underway on board my ship uh during the summer of 2017. I was on the USS Ashland out of Sasebo, Japan. Matter of fact, I was down in Australia during this time period. We were uh I'm not sure where we were off the coast of, but it was by the pretty sure by the reef area, and our one of our helicopters, uh, an Osprey went over backwards and we lost three Marines off the coast of Australia. And but it was during the summer we lost those marines. We had two of our ships had major collisions, and we lost sailors and just many, many incidents. And me and my leadership team, every day would remind every other sailor like, hey, we cannot let that happen to us today. Every day you've got to wake up purposeful, take every watch, every six-hour watch, like it's your first time, treat it with that same level of intensity, attention to detail, because you could be the difference between life or death and somebody on the ship because people not paying attention can cause you to slip, trip, fall, change your whole life. Car accident. How many people driving cars become complacent, and then all of a sudden, with the snap of a fingers, their whole world changes?

Gabrielle Dolan 47:15

Yeah, you know, it's complacency, isn't it? Like it's you're right. We drive in the cars, we all know the rules. We all know the rules.

Gary Wise 47:22

And it's that one moment that, oh, that this won't matter this moment, and that's when it's and it applies to this same conversation that we're having about AI and not becoming to complacent to the point that you are not recognizing that what you put it under your name, nobody cares what AI generated it. Yeah, but you may lose, you may lose people that believe in you, you may lose people that don't want to hear what you have to say, which again is why I started doing video instead of just continuously doing written things, because I thought, you know what? Video is is harder to, and at least in my mind, to do consistently, right? Doing a podcast, having a conversation, vice, somebody who gets the time to write out something, and they not everyone always is gonna read every word you write. Maybe they're gonna pick out, I don't know about you, but I've become a lazy reader. I really have.

Gabrielle Dolan 48:19

I I regret I've always been a lazy reader.

Gary Wise 48:23

No, no, but Gabrielle, I regret sometimes my education because I I trained myself to read to find the information that I'm looking for instead of just enjoying reading the thing, right? And so when you were talking about public stories, I was thinking of myself, and that's why you should read as many books as possible, because you get access to all these other people's personal stories that you can then leverage in your life by communicating about this person. And a book is a great way to find some of those stories, right?

Speaker 1 48:58

Yeah, absolutely.

Gary Wise 48:59

But and I'm just again just thinking about when I think about this problem or this perceived problem. For me, it's not about trusting somebody or trusting who wrote whatever. It's I come to this place of, but I must do the right thing when I read the content to determine do I think this is appropriate or not appropriate. Because I'm just you talked about it earlier about there's a mistrust in the world. And I and I unfortunately I think it's been there since the beginning of time.

Gabrielle Dolan 49:29

Yeah, it has, it's just got worse. And and and based on that too, I often have um I have them people in my workshop and I always you know talk about um you know authentic stories, and often, often people go, Well, if it's made up but gets the message across, and they're talking about a personal story, not like a parable, um that's okay, isn't it? And it's like you and people go, you know, like I'll share that copperhead snake story, for example, and they go, that could be made up, we won't know. And I go, you can't control what other people do. If other people want to make up stories, I mean, good luck to them. I always say, why would you hold that? Because your authentic stories are really powerful and it's so much easier to use your own stories and make them up. But you can't control what other people do telling authentic stories. You can't control what other people do with AI. What you can control is what you do with it. So you can go, all right, I I'm not gonna add to this problem, and I'm gonna, you know, like my letter to AI, it's gonna be my North Star that I am gonna take control, and I am consciously not gonna put stuff out there that is that's not me and that that I wouldn't take, you know, accountability and responsibility for. So yeah, the the the distrust is there, and and the point is we're saying it's always been there, it's it's at its worst at the moment. So um why would you why would you even make up a story? Because it's adding to that distrust.

Gary Wise 50:54

Here's what I'll tell you about making up stories is one of the most difficult things about being a you know a parent, being a spouse, being a anybody in a position of responsibility and or trust, consistency is one of the most challenging things. And if you start telling stories that are not true and not honest, you're gonna probably start telling different versions of stories. And once people hear the same story, three different versions, they're not gonna trust you anymore. No, no, right? And I made a conscious decision a long time ago that I'm just not ever gonna lie. There's just not time in the day, and I've got way too much going on to have to worry about when was the last time I might have told a fib, right? Or just or said something that wasn't all the way true. And the another thing I've learned, and I've learned this the hard way, is that no matter what I say, I have got to be prepared to stand behind it at any moment. And if I made a mistake, I've got to readily accept it, own it, and ask for forgiveness if I wrong somebody and not be so stubborn as to be just unapologetic. But I've actually been in close conversations with somebody, and not 15 minutes later, somebody else will walk in the room and ask me directly about that conversation. And yes, I had that conversation, and yes, this is what I said, because unfortunately,

Vulnerability Stories That Build Trust

Gary Wise 52:20

trust is just not always gonna be there, especially if you're someone who's in the the leadership space, because unfortunately it's lonely at the time.

Gabrielle Dolan 52:31

It is, it is and yeah, I was gonna say one of the things I talk about because I predominantly work with leaders, um, is that when you sh when you share a personal story, and sometimes it's a personal story of when you didn't do you when you did the wrong thing and the regret you have and the lessons you learn, that that can actually and science just shows us this, that can actually build trust. So if you if you tell me a story of, you know, when you were young in your career and you made this mistake and you know, whatever, and it's like first, so I get the message, so I get the message, but I actually so I connect with the story and the message, but I connect with you, and and again in leadership roles, it's sort of like, oh, you know, oh you've been there, you're it's sort of it's almost like it's going, you're human. You're and you know, leaders go, but I am human. I go, yeah, but when there's a power imbalance, it's good to know that that that's what stories do to go, no, you're really human and you understand what I'm going through. Um, and that's critical in leadership and and parenting. For you know, I've got um, I've got two daughters, Gary, one 22 and 25. And um the stories I share of when they like at their age or younger, it's sort of they I'm not telling them what to do, but I'm going, this is my experience. And you know, they're I'm helping them by sharing my experience of this. It's like my my eldest daughter is just going through a relationship breakup at the moment, and the best thing I can do is share her my stories of my relationship breakups when I was in my 20s.

Gary Wise 54:07

And I think when you're vulnerable, it shows you're giving trust to them for your, you know, this is where I'm weak a little bit, but I'm sharing this with you because I want you to be strong and to learn from my weakness. And I think that, like you said, that will build trust and that will build bridges, and they'll hopefully learn something from the you know, the story you're telling them. I also think about when I was a kid, you know, I grew up I'm 48 years old. So just for context, for everyone listening, right? That was my generation. And in the 1980s, part of like children's programming and in the States, they would have like a cartoon show. Then at the end, there would be like a moral, like this is the goal we want you to take away from this, you know, treat others the way you would like to be treated, or whatever it is, right? And they would show you essentially a piece of that uh morality from the show, and they were trying to get you to get the message right from their cartoon. And that's always kind of stuck with me as what you know, what's a good way to hopefully when somebody's coming to you looking for information, or if they're sharing, and if they if they're sharing a hard spot and they would like to hear words from you, because sometimes people don't want to hear, they just they want to tell you how what they're going through and just tell you and not hear anything. Yeah, yeah, you know, but you know, but one of my you know, being older, being a little bit more seasoned, there maybe there can be a perspective that can hopefully give a light through the end of the tunnel while also not rushing you through the process because you've all we've all got to go through our challenges in life, right?

Gabrielle Dolan 55:45

Yeah, yeah. And that's exactly that's that's so spot on because sometimes whether it's as parents or as leaders, leaders especially, we want to give the answers. And in this situation, there's no answers, right? But what they want from you as a parent or a leader is that I un I truly understand what you're going through. And as opposed to just saying, I truly understand what you're going through, whatever, if you share a story, it's like, yeah, when I was 23, you know, I was engaged and my fiance broke our up our relationship six months before our wedding, and I'm telling my daughter that she's sort of going, all right. So you really get what like if you know, you understand what I'm going through. And um, and then it's like not only you understand what I'm going through, but yours was worse than mine. So it's that's where stories can be really in in those coaching and mentoring situations because they're giving advice, but without necessarily giving the answers, because you know, sometimes that's not necessary to give the answers.

Book Reception And What Readers Take

Gary Wise 56:45

So before we start to head into our wrap-up for today's show, which has a bit of great conversation, and I really appreciate that. You know, when you wrote the book, when you published the book, what what what were you what were you hoping? What was you hoping the reception would be? And are you getting the reception you'd hope to receive?

Gabrielle Dolan 57:03

Um, thank you for that question. That's no one's ever asked me that before. I and so my hope for this book is um, I know I said my last book five years ago was going to be my last book on storytelling. I truly believe that this is my last book on storytelling, and and it's almost like 20 years of my career is in this book. So it's like everything is in this book. Um, and my hope is that it gets to as many people as possible, because again, uh story storytelling is just a day-to-day skill, and but it but it is a skill. So that was my hope. I think the timeliness around AI, um, I was hoping that would make it more relevant. Um, and so am I getting that reaction? Yes, absolutely. So uh not only from people who are, you know, total strangers that have read the book saying how much they love their book. I got a uh an email the other day from someone who's preparing to do a TEDx talk. So, you know, they're they don't know this stuff and they're using the book to help them prepare for the TEDx talk, just down to you know, people saying, you know, I it encouraged me to share this story with my kids or you know, my team, and it worked. Um, it it debuted number one in Australia's business books, which I was very happy about. But the thing I was then really, I guess, helping me go, yeah, I I think it's relevant and I think it's timely that it reached number one in four different Amazon categories. So, like, you know, workplace communication, um, you know, even social skills, like presentations and team meetings. So it's clearly resonating. And um, I I I said before that I don't I don't read a lot of books, and I truly don't read a lot of books, and I don't read, I start to read a lot of business books, but never finish business books because I feel business books uh there's a lot of padding. So um I I write the way I speak, um, which the greatest compliment I get from people that read the book, they go, I feel like you were in the room reading it to me. So um, yeah, I'm happy with it. I'm I'm proud of it. I'm proud, I'm proud of it.

Gary Wise 59:10

Well, I just I know how it is in the creative space that you put all this work into something, and then you just really hope that people will appreciate it, we'll yeah we'll take the time to share in it and we'll find value in it. And you know, I I really appreciate the work that goes into. I mean, I eight books. I mean, you're an old sage now and generating books, but I just I I and then I was seeing all the accolades you were getting for the book because I'm just I wonder if that's exactly what she was hoping for. So that's great. August things, yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan 59:41

You know, and it is you know, people sometimes go, Oh, you probably get this a lot. People tell you how great your book is. I was like, no, like tell me again. I don't I think some people go, Oh, she should she, I won't I won't bother sending her a LinkedIn text or because she probably gets a hundred of these a day. It's like no, and I and you and you I mean God, if I did get a hundred a day, happy days. But um, you know, just you'd love to hear them because you go, okay, it has made a difference, it was worth it.

Gary Wise 1:00:09

Right, yeah. No, I I can relate to that for sure. Okay, so I don't know, how do you end your podcast? You do you end it the same way every time, or do you just kind of wrap it up?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:00:18

No, we so my podcast, I I'm with a co-host, so my podcast is called Keeping It Real with Jack and Rao. And um, we normally we're just normally bantering on and giving some final tips. And normally my podcast host, Jack, is bantering on. I go, okay, and my producers go and wrap it up because we try to keep it to about you know 25-30 minutes. And uh normally, not you know, normally I say, Thanks everyone for listening. Don't forget,

Rapid Fire Questions And Goodbye

Gabrielle Dolan 1:00:45

right?

Gary Wise 1:00:45

Yeah, spread the love. Nice. So, what I do at Words from the Wise is I ask a series of rapid fire questions.

Gabrielle Dolan 1:00:53

Oh, I love I love rapid fire questions. It sometimes makes me a little bit nervous, but I'm um I love them.

Gary Wise 1:00:58

Well, and and these are not too complicated, but I'm gonna typically for my guests that are not former military, some of the questions I have to do a little bit of explaining for, but I guess they're pretty consistent because they are applicable to everybody. Okay, so uh the first question on the on the Navy ships for the US on the Saturday nights in particular, it's a it's always like a holiday. The cooks always are making pizza and chicken wings, it's a big deal. So, out of those two, which one would you rather look forward to? Pizza or chicken wings?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:01:28

Pizza, definitely.

Gary Wise 1:01:29

Got it, pizza, good to go. Okay, next question. So on the ship, we all sleep in a compartment called the birthing, and this is where all the the bunks are at and the bath the bathroom facilities, and you know, it's a great place to be because it's air conditioned and it's cold and the lights are turned down. And once you get the cleaning done, you might be able to sneak and nap, right? So a lot of people like to have the job of going to clean the birthing. The other side of that coin is we have these parties called working parties, and this is where we send people as tributes, like in the Hunger Games, to go down and they're gonna have the music blasting and they're gonna be moving all the food on the ship, you know, and seeing all the goodies that we're gonna be eating. But it's a lot of hard work, it's a very loud environment, and it's probably going to be not as air conditioned as the birthing, right? Right. If I needed to send somebody, if I needed to send you to either the working party or the birthing cleaner, which one would you rather have?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:02:31

I think the birthing. Is that the one that's air conditioned? Yeah, that's the one that's air conditioned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'm a I'm a you know, a middle-aged woman, and air conditioning is good at my age.

Gary Wise 1:02:48

I get it, I get it. Okay, birth and cleaners check. All right, uh, in your life so far, have you have you have you have you had the chance to live in different parts of Australia throughout your life?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:03:01

No, I haven't. I've always literally always lived in Melbourne, um, even to the point where we changed house about three, uh moved house about three years ago after being out in our family home for 20 years, and um we moved three kilometers away. So it's it so always, always Melbourne.

Gary Wise 1:03:21

All right. So then I guess this next question would be where have you traveled in your life that you thought was like the favorite vacation place you've ever been to?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:03:30

Uh so this isn't maybe it's recency as well. Um, you talked about Japan. I we went to Japan a couple of years ago. Love, love, love Japan, and definitely we'll go back. But um last year we went to um Cape Town and then we did a safari and four days at this luxury safari where you're just literally waking up and seeing elephants right there, and that was uh oh, I just want to go back. I just I could I could go back and do something like that every year because you're just literally immersing yourself. You know, there was no Wi-Fi or very limited Wi-Fi. Um, you're just immersed in yourself, watching animals, like just watching a leopard sitting on a rock for half an hour, and it was unbelievable.

Gary Wise 1:04:14

What's the flight time like from Australia to South Africa?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:04:18

Okay, so the flight time from Australia anywhere is long. We are very used to we are very used to traveling long. That was um it was 24 hours, so we went from Melbourne to Sydney, then Sydney to Johannesburg, which is Sydney to Johannesburg is about fifth six fifteen, sixteen hours, and then Johannesburg to Cape Town. But I you know, we every time I go to the states for work, it's um it's a long one. It's a long way. Now you can go from, especially if it's New York, I can go from Melbourne to Auckland, which is about three and a half hours, and then Auckland to New York direct, which is which is um so much better than it used to sort of be Melbourne to LA, and then you'd have to do the big transfer to LA to New York, which was um yes, or yeah.

Gary Wise 1:05:04

I I I understand. I'm going to my me and my wife are going to Spain this summer for a trip just the two of us since we've had children, right? We have never done a trip just the two of us. And I just I kept our hot our kept our airline shifts to a minimum, and then selfishly I kept them all in the states just because you know, for me, my own I have not yet been to Europe. I've done a lot of Pacific, I have not done a lot of Atlantic, right? Yeah, um, but I definitely kind of relate to the states and the different airports and the chaos that can be there as you're trying to change flights. So I'm absolutely absolutely okay. Next question. When you're looking back on your life, what was the most challenging like piece of education or qualification you think you've had to you've achieved throughout your life?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:05:56

Um, in regard to a qualification, I I um I I I failed English in my final year of school by one one one percent. I was a I was a pretty lazy student. I wasn't necessarily struggling uh academically, I was just lazy. Um so I never went to uni, I went straight into the workforce. And it was um at late my late 20s when I knew I wanted to get into training people. Um I I did an associate diploma of education training, and then I then I did an MBA in management and leadership. And that was you know, that was that was good, but it was challenging. And um, you know, I spoke before that I write how I speak. I used to get my husband to correct my assignments, and he would just go, You can't you can't write academic papers like this. He goes, It you're writing as you're like you sound, like you're speaking. And I'm going, Oh, is and goes, which is fine, but not for academic papers. And I remember my uh my thesis, and you know, my supervisor said, you know, you you could go on and do a PhD. And I just thought, no, that would absolutely the only reason I would do a PhD is so I could call myself doctor. Um and I just said no, that would do my head in. And then I thought, and that and that's and that's why I love writing books as I speak, and I that and that's the background to why that can be the biggest compliment people give me is like, oh my god, it sounded like you were in the room talking to me. I was like, Yes, mission accomplished. Right, right. You can't do that in an academic thesis or PhD, right?

Gary Wise 1:07:31

Yeah, I tell people uh when you're going through a college, college education or somebody else's educational organization, you have to learn to meet their requirements. Yes, it doesn't always get to be your requirements, right?

Speaker 1 1:07:44

Exactly.

Gary Wise 1:07:45

That's it. Okay. Uh one of the questions I ask people is if you could live any in any other country besides your home country, where would you live? So if you could live anywhere else besides Australia, where do you think you would is there anywhere else in the world you'd like to live?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:08:03

I'm gonna say Japan, but I if you I'm sort of can you ask me that in two months' time? Because we're doing a trip around the UK, and uh I'm sort of liking the sound of Ireland, and of course Dolan is um that's my maiden name, but um it we it's uh but we've done both me and my husband have done our ancestry, and we've both come, you know, like almost 70% from Southern Ireland. So maybe Ireland. I could jump.

Gary Wise 1:08:31

So mine.

Gabrielle Dolan 1:08:32

So mine.

Gary Wise 1:08:34

I did my DNA. I'm all from like Wales, Ireland, Scotland.

Gabrielle Dolan 1:08:38

Oh, yeah. No, well, we were we were like, you know, nearly 65-70 percent from Munster in Ireland, which is which is so like Cork in that area of Southern Ireland. So um, yeah, it might be a bit cold, but that's all right. That's okay. I could if I could deal with cold now.

Gary Wise 1:08:55

Well, I hope you guys have a fantastic trip. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite movie or television series?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:09:04

Ooh, one of my favorite movies. Uh you know what my favorite movie is Pulp Fiction. Resource Dogs.

Gary Wise 1:09:13

Yeah, okay.

Gabrielle Dolan 1:09:14

I love Pulp Fiction and I love the soundtrack of Pulp Fiction. In fact, our wedding song came off the soundtrack of Pulp Fiction. The um very cool the uh you know um let's stick together that song.

Gary Wise 1:09:31

Okay, would you rather be independent or on a team?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:09:37

I do love, I do love being part of a team, like a sporting team, but um the fact that I've run my own business for 21 years, and I think I would rather be by myself. If I and you know what? Um I love running my own business by myself, but I collaborate. I I choose to collaborate when I want to. So, like doing the podcast, you know, with my co-host Jack, and you know, keeping it real with Jack and Rao, that's a collaboration, and I love doing that. But I also love 70% of my time being accountable for me. And if I don't want to do it, like sometimes I think of even myself, I think of these good ideas and I work through it, and then I just go, and I might ask people about it, and then I just go, oh, that just sounds like too much hard work. Just can't be bothered. That's one of it's one of the benefits of getting older, Gary is you know, I can't be bothered.

Gary Wise 1:10:31

I get it, I get it, and you know, for leaders, it's always such a complicated question for us, you know, because we love to be team players, but we also like to be responsible for the team and be the one that makes the decision ultimately. Yeah, exactly. Do you have a personal leadership philosophy?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:10:49

Um I I have uh I I love quotes, and so um probably the greatest quote I live, and I think it I think it is with leadership or anything, it'll be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's not the end. So that's a good word, yeah. I use that, you know, especially right now with my daughter going through. I just go, you know what, it'll be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's just not the end yet. Um, probably not specifically a leadership one, but um it's a life one for me.

Gary Wise 1:11:23

Well, I will tell you, as one of the things I've learned through life is to not overreact. Yeah, and a piece of that is not thinking that it's such crisis that look, no one's dying. If no one's dying, if we're not getting shot at, we can probably all afford to just relax for a minute and calm down.

Speaker 1 1:11:39

Yeah, right.

Gary Wise 1:11:39

We don't we don't need to start saying mean things, we don't need to start hurting people on purpose. Let's just like I love that if it's not all right, it's not the end.

Gabrielle Dolan 1:11:47

Yeah, I I I have thought I I have I have thought of a leadership one because I often tell this to leaders, and that's um real leaders aren't perfect, and perfect leaders aren't real. So that's teaching my workshop.

Gary Wise 1:11:59

Yeah, that's a good one too. That's a good one too. I like it. Perfect leaders aren't real. Don't be afraid to make a mistake.

Gabrielle Dolan 1:12:08

Yeah, yeah.

Gary Wise 1:12:08

Yeah, okay. So with the Navy, the United States Navy, the chief petty officers in particular, we are like the senior enlisted leadership portion of the organization. So we're we're not officers, but we are the senior of like, I would say, if you look at the cast system, we're like the workers, but we're the seniority of the workers. And smart officers listen to us because we've been around a while, right? Um, and we have some guiding principles. Uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna give them to you, and I'm gonna ask you to pick which one of them most resonates for you. All righty. Uh the first one is deck plate leadership, because on our ships we have these deck plates that we walk on, and it's just meant to be your leader that's out there in with the people, doing things in front of everybody, right? You're leading them by example. So the next one is to be an institutional and technical expert, right? So not just knowing how to do your job technically correct, but also understanding the organization that you're a part of and how everything in the interrelates and correlates. And we need you to do both of those things equally well, right? Yep. Uh the next one is professionalism, but it's not just like having a sharp-looking uniform, it's about recognizing you're in a profession and you need to take it serious, right? This is what you chose to do with your time, and we expect you to be professional with every part of what you're doing, right? Yeah, and sometimes people kind of misunderstand that professionalism. They think it's just your haircut or just your shape, but it's it's so much more than that, right? Yeah. Okay. The next one is character, and you know, really, it's just you you have got to uh, you know, not have a say do mismatch. You have got to be a person whose honor is something that we can just, it's it's always gonna be solid, right? Your character cannot be without question. Uh next one is loyalty, and a big one for us is you can't just it's not about even loyal, it's loyal to the organization, right? Over more than anything. So even if it's the bad news, you still gotta be able to deliver it. Even if you got to tell somebody something they don't want to hear, you're so you have to say what you gotta say. And so loyalty is the next one, and then there's two more there. The next one after loyalty is active communication, which means you're you're encouraging communication up, down, left, right, you know, side to side, everywhere. Your job, our job is to ensure the communication is happening, and when it's not happening, jar it loose, right? And get the communication running again because we we know that if communication stops, we're gonna fail. And then our final uh principle that we all lean off of is called a sense of heritage, and that is leveraging stories, leveraging our history to never forget where we've come from as an organization, right? Our Navy has gone through all these things since it was founded back when the United States first became a country, and we've gone through all of these things, and we've learned a lot of hard lessons. Don't lose those lessons by not paying them forward, and then do your best to learn about the heritage so you can be a contributor to the, you know, because part of our role is to be the ones that keep that heritage alive. We're the storytellers, yes, right? We're the storytellers. Out of those, is there one that I mean you probably like the whole bunch of, but is there one that you would pick to be your favorite?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:15:38

Yeah, so uh you probably think I'm gonna go with the last one because it's got storytelling in it. No, no, no. I actually I I think I'm gonna go with deck plate leadership, but I want to character the the way you were describing character is like you know, almost do what you say and don't have a mismatch between. I think sort of sounded like deck plate leadership to me. So um I'm gonna do that, and then yeah, uh if I could pick a third one, I'd be active communication. And and the active communication would bring in elements of the sense of heritage. So I know that's cheating, but if I had if I could only choose one, I would go with um tech plate leadership.

Gary Wise 1:16:21

I think tech plate leader. I got it. No, that's awesome. I appreciate it. Okay, two more questions and we're done. Would you rather lead or would you rather follow? Lead. All right. Last question is Gabrielle. Do you have any uh anything else you would like to discuss? Or is there, you know, where can people find you if they're looking to find out more about you to get your book? What what would you like to tell the people?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:16:46

Okay, so um the book is available like globally on you know, Amazon, all the usual retailers, and uh I you know, I think it would be your best investment of $20 ever for your active communication. Um and our podcast is called Keeping It Real with Jack and Raoul. So every every Monday we drop a new episode. It's all on it's all about career, professional development, it really insights, it's funny. There's a bit of swearing if you really don't want to wear it. But you know, my my 92-year-old mother listens to it and she doesn't get offended. And and we were we were never allowed to swear growing up, so it's not too much, it's not too much in there. Um, and you know, my my uh LinkedIn's my biggest platform. So if you um want to connect with me on LinkedIn and you know, my website's gabrialdoland.com, but yeah, linked LinkedIn is where I'm very active.

Gary Wise 1:17:38

Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for sharing your your your insights and your your wisdom with the world. I appreciate it. And I'll make sure I put all of that stuff in all my packaging as well, and we get the word out to everybody, okay?

Gabrielle Dolan 1:17:54

Yeah, thanks, Gary. It's been uh it's been a pleasure talking to you.

Gary Wise 1:17:58

It sure has, man. You take care of yourself down there and enjoy Ireland.

Gabrielle Dolan 1:18:03

Yes, absolutely.

Gary Wise 1:18:05

All right, y'all. Do you all know what to do? Please like, subscribe, and all the other things. Bye again, everyone. Bye. Bye. Out on it.